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spoonitnow
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02-05-2010, 09:36 PM
Post subject: Beginners Circle Suggestions Thread
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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I guess now that I'm the new BC regulator I'll take suggestions on things you would like to see in the BC. Or something. Anything suggested to add/remove fromt he sticky, etc. gl me
Edit: Also considering talking some midstakes players into doing well posts here. Thoughts?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,460
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pron
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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How about we create a thread to request & get sweats together? This'll add to the BC community, have low stakes players help microstakes players, etc.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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Donachello
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: TROLOLOLOLOL
Posts: 849
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BooG690
How about we create a thread to request & get sweats together? This'll add to the BC community, have low stakes players help microstakes players, etc.
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+1000000
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[00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
[00:30] <DC> daven
[00:30] <DC> on my hand?
[00:30] <daven> yep
[00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
[00:30] <daven> nice reason
[00:30] <daven> no further questions
[00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol
Problem officer...?
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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i guess this is somewhat more of a general observation than a very specific question, but:
i find that the structure of the BC is set up so that the majority of the population (beginners, ldo) comment on what they feel comfortable commenting on, which bumps those threads, and may read and take interest in threads with some actually interesting/difficult turn spots, etc, but have no comment. so what ends up happening is that threads like "fold KK PF to 1/2 stacker?" and "how's my turn 1/10 PSB with top set on wet board vs fish?" get bumped 30 times a day and are in public view sometimes for weeks, whereas things like "exploitation in deep-stacked spots" are very short lived in public view and 90% of the time generate disappointing results.
i don't mean to sound bitter or elitist or anything, but i think we can all agree that the forum has more potential than to read a bunch of threads that's nothing but facepalm emoticon's and captain obvious answers.
A few potential solutions to aforementioned more general observation:
1. Locking threads when they've reached their full potentiality: i suggest this at the risk of coming off as elitist. by no means do we need to lock every thread that has AA or a set in it immediately or anything, but with a lot of these threads, someone like XTR'll come along by response #3 and say the obvious answer, and it seldom necessitates much expounding upon. so once the obvious is stated, if OP doesn't have any followup questions or clarifying questions of importance, relevance, or generally interesting game theory, then i think the thread can be considered to have fully realized it's potentiality (leaving room for more interesting thread).
bj did a good job of getting some clutter out of the way right off the bat with introductory-type threads, and i thnk that did a bit to help
2. BCers can take it upon ourselves to be more courteous toward people who say something that isn't necessarily wholly correct: probably part of the reason that tough turn spots and complex poker theory doesn't continually get bumped to the top of the stack like it could is because most posters generally don't comment on things that they're not 1000% sure is correct. and the most likely reason that is is because if they post something that is one way or another incorrect, they are certain to get quoted and shat upon and made to feel like they know nothing about poker. it's actually interesting because even SHNL, which has much better players posting on it whom you would think would be more up on their pedastol, doesn't shit on other people even like 1/10th as much as happens in the BC. prolly 'cause when you're crushing 600nl, you don't need to shit on other people in order to legitimize your poker career.
3. bumping old goodies: some people like dranger do this from time to time, and i think it gives us the opportunity to get our eyes on some good, fresh stuff and reignite old, unsettled discussions without having to actually create anything new. it increases the probability of some sort of depth of discussion being reached in what might have been a disappointing thread, but even if that doesn't happen, it at least gives BCers something good to read and oftentimes does much in the way of covering general topics that are brought up on a weekly basis like the BC is an episode of groundhog's day.
prolly having like a Bump of the Day would be putting to much work on the admins, but this could also be something that us BCers could take upon ourselves. (could range anywhere from general theory to specific HH to simple math shortcuts to how to's [like how to put someone on a range or how to post a HH], etc.)
4. everyone could tell me to stop fucking making these long ass posts because they're all tl;dr. not to mention i'm a grad student and could be spending this precious time working on my portfolio or something.
5. simply have spoonitnow jerk off on the BC and have his magical (yet often unpleasant) sperm demons extract all the suck out of the forum.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Spoon,There are some well type posts made by Spenda, Goat and I think Griffey that may be can be added already. Others may have done something similar as well. I think they have been going with an "Ask me" type of post, if that helps.
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rong
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
'cause when you're crushing 600nl, you don't need to shit on other people in order to legitimize your poker career.
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Thats a good point, people get frustrated which I understand, but this is the beginners circle,wtf do you expect, it's almost like bullying people sometimes, except that it's the smart kids rather than the tough kids (kinda cool in that respect).
Perhaps to some extent you need to expect dumb questions. Unless there's any way you could make it that you can't make your first post until you type a meaningful response to one of the stickies to demonstrate your understanding and the fact that you have bothered to read it?
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.
Fucking. Retarded.
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kiwiMark
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 939
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You guys think spoon is the mod that's gonna get rid of ridiculing people?
(<3 spoon)
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Hoopy
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 776
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A thread where people can post some interesting value bet spots since it's one of the most important things to learn for beating the micros.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,460
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I think well posts are a good idea, also a sweat request thread, which could be marked as a sticky to keep it in the open.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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tomato paste carnage
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: in a van down by the river
Posts: 115
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I like the sweat request idea. It'd be good for the community as a whole and players individually.
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Tilt is poker cancer. You catch it, you die.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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@BooG690, Donachello, and others - A common request so far is a sweat session thread as a sticky in this forum. Ask and you shall receive: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...en-t92429.html
@surviva316 and others - In regards to dealing with the dumb questions we get and the flaming that ensues, I think the Beginner's Circle FAQ has become sort of obsolete and it could be reorganized a bit to answer some of the dumb questions we get from time to time.
Along a similar line of conversation, I'm not a fan of locking threads just because the OP's question has been answered because it prevents further elaboration.
@jyms, I'll try to dig those up. I'm also going to encourage other small/mid-stakes players to post more often.
As far as trolling goes, that's going to happen too and we as a community have to do the best we can to discourage it. Oh the other hand, if someone can't handle a facepalm smiley in reply to their 2nl hand history post, then they don't have much of a future in poker anyway and there's nothing we can do to help that.
Keep up the suggestions guys.
Also, would anyone support a FTR BC IRC channel to chat in?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Also, would anyone support a FTR BC IRC channel to chat in?
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We already have one. It's called #flopturnriver.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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Great start, Regulator.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,518
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can we all just step back and laugh a little at how FTR's biggest troll was appointed supreme commander of BC?
:h FTR 
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Oh good god was is the world coming to fuck this shit
P.S. me likey your edit in the OP
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,801
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identify the thread from each of the other spots (FR/SH/etc) with the best or most interesting content each week. Link these to the BC. This could also act as an archive/digest type of thing for each of these fora.
i mentioned it to xianti way back when, but i haven't got around to doing anything about it - i don't think i even mentioned it to stax!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by xman
Sure! Any topic, in ANY forum, that you feel could help a beginner improve his game or get them thinking about good concepts should be suggested in the Beginners Digest. I don't believe the Digest should be limited to only the BC forum's topics. You can tell Stax I said so. I'm pretty sure he'll agree.
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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I suggest getting rid of the beginners winners circle sticky, since we already have Tales of Poker. That thread is just a mess.
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(Josh)
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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+1 on removing the winners circle.
Digest could use some cleaning up.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BooG690
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Also, would anyone support a FTR BC IRC channel to chat in?
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We already have one. It's called #flopturnriver. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
can we all just step back and laugh a little at how FTR's biggest troll was appointed supreme commander of BC?
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Standard x2.
I agree with the people who say the winner's circle thread is a mess and really unnecessary. The problem is that it's a long-standing part of the forum and I don't want to just come in and start changing big things around just yet when I don't know everyone's opinion. To deal with this and justify doing it, I've started a poll in this thread http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ad-t92436.html where you can vote and plead your case.
On a similar topic, I would like to combine the Beginner's Digest with the Guide to Posting Hands post and the FAQ and some other things and create a master BC sticky.
In general, the current state of things in the sticky area is probably about to get revamped in a serious way, and hopefully that will help some of the problems this forum has about dumb questions (in terms of beats), other common questions that are easily answered, and things of that nature.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I agree with the people who say the winner's circle thread is a mess and really unnecessary.
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I voted and commented in your poll.
Quote:
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On a similar topic, I would like to combine the Beginner's Digest with the Guide to Posting Hands post and the FAQ and some other things and create a master BC sticky.
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Actually, I don't like this idea. It would be one monster of a topic. The Digest should only contain above-elementary strategy threads and other, more specifically helpful topics and links. You could consolidate Guide to Posting Hands and the FAQ into one "READ BEFORE POSTING: Beginners Circle and Poker Primer" topic. All general forum directives and often-asked/answered basic poker concepts should go in this topic. This would make more sense, imho.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xianti
Actually, I don't like this idea. It would be one monster of a topic. The Digest should only contain above-elementary strategy threads and other, more specifically helpful topics and links. You could consolidate Guide to Posting Hands and the FAQ into one "READ BEFORE POSTING: Beginners Circle and Poker Primer" topic. All general forum directives and often-asked/answered basic poker concepts should go in this topic. This would make more sense, imho.
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I didn't mean just mashing everything together into one thread, sorry for the confusion. Traditionally there are two main stickies in a forum like this. One is a digest-type thread which is like what you described above, and the other is a FAQ-type thread that also provides a general guide to the forum.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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Suggestion:
What about we make a thread every month titled Stat Review Only - Month X
Requirements to post would be Min. 15k Hands.
We would have poeple post positional stats, general stats.
And their C bet flop Fold to C bet flop stats.
Then the pros or other BCers like me can commit on what we like and don't like, this way we can avoid all those random stat threads. Plus develop a base where everyone looks at stats and can compare to their own without even asking questions.
!luck
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by !Luck
Suggestion:
What about we make a thread every month titled Stat Review Only - Month X
Requirements to post would be Min. 15k Hands.
We would have poeple post positional stats, general stats.
And their C bet flop Fold to C bet flop stats.
Then the pros or other BCers like me can commit on what we like and don't like, this way we can avoid all those random stat threads. Plus develop a base where everyone looks at stats and can compare to their own without even asking questions.
!luck
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This would get rid of all the "How are my stats?" threads that we get a shitton of anyway. Throw it all in one thread.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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kdawgy80
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 52
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Lovin' the new mojo around here!
Don't really have anything groundbreaking in terms of suggestions. I'd agree with most of what's been said. I think adding as much as possible to a new faq would be great. There really are Soooo many similar threads so hopefully it would help in that regard. I think its a bit more constructive to yell at someone and tell them to read the stickys rather than yelling and telling them to stop being such a dumbass. Would probably make our lives a bit easier too to be able to just refer to a sticky.
My main suggestion to is more seconding what has already been said about adding wells. Personally that's my fav type of post to read and I think can really be beneficial to readers. I am willing to write some myself too but I know there are way more ppl way more qualified than myself.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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I'd just like to add to this thread that I'm going to be locking the crap out of threads where someone posts a hand with no reads or stats or whatever and I would like to know how everyone feels about this.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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^ Love it.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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I think someone needs to write an updated NL strategy guide for beginners. Renton's stuff was great in 2006, but the game is a lot different now. I think many beginners find their way to this forum from the homepage, hoping to learn how to beat NL games online, but the material currently in the digest doesn't really cut it. Again, no disrespect to Renton, but the 2006 guide contains little discussion of critical concepts like how to put your opponent on a range. So it's no wonder newbies come in here and post hands without mentioning ranges.
Of course I am not volunteering to write a new guide, and I don't know who would want to. At a minimum, maybe the sticky should list some recommended books like NLHE Theory and Practice. That book totally changed my game after months of floundering without proper conceptual grounding.
ChezJ
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caddie444
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: constantly UTG
Posts: 722
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I'd just like to add to this thread that I'm going to be locking the crap out of threads where someone posts a hand with no reads or stats or whatever and I would like to know how everyone feels about this.
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I'm all for this but I think to help out the noobs you need to direct them to posts focused on what stats/reads/ranges etc are b/c a lot of them don't have a clue. The "guidelines for posting hands" sticky states that these need to be provided, but doesn't link to any posts about forming ranges, posting meaningful stats, relevant reads etc...
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Don't complain; Just work harder - Randy Pausch (The Last Lecture)
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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agree with caddie.
another suggestion: delete the "Announcement: READ BEFORE POSTING: Beginners Circle FAQ" and turn the "Guidelines for Posting Hands" into an Announcement.
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kiwiMark
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 939
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I think an example post, be it a fictitious perfect post or a link to a good one from some time, would go well in the sticky, so people have an idea what's expected of them.
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Story time. Yeah, you know me.
Ok, so I ask myself, if I was new coming to the forum and I came to the BC to learn what would I hope/expect to find, what would be valuable to me and what would confuse the hell out of me?
One thing that could be argued is currently not as obvious as would be useful to an abject beginner is a filter that tells us what is standard and what depends - what is just an opinion. Another side of this is information overload - it is sometimes good to see the same thing described in three or four different ways by people who understand them slightly differently - it aids in deeper understanding - but for the initial fix the simplified explanation is probably better off standing alone.
The point I'm trying to get at is.. while a digest has a wealth of information on a variety of topics the quality and content coverage of the digest-worthy posts is not consistent. What I would treasure above all else is if we could distill the wisdom of these posts into structured essays that cover a subject. Spoon's recently bumped post about hand combinations and blockers is a classic example of the kind of distillation that makes other posts on a similar topic obsolete.
Also, I do not think these posts ideally live in a vacuum. Ideally there will be a structure - how to think about poker - whereby subjects are connected to other subjects and you can see how what you learn in one area begins to apply in other areas. Maybe it's not so much a structure as it's an intelligent hyperlinking of subjects one to another that I'm thinking about.
Let me see if I can think of some examples. Some good ideas in this thread already. Actually Bankroll Management is a classic example of this done well. The text is automatically transformed into a link to the classic strategy article on the topic. Similarly "hand combinations" or "blockers" could link to the above mentioned spoon post. Maybe a wiki-like resource could be used to take down the best, most succinct coverage of discreet topics and provide that auto-link when terms are used. Maybe the poker dictionary could be expanded to provide this type of functinonality.
Once again, I am not looking for numbers. I'm not looking for hundreds of thousands of posts, tens of thousand of threads, thousands of poker dictionary entries or hundreds of strategy articles. The number available is completely unimportant to me. What's important is that we have a high quality authoritative article at the heart of every discreet topic - or at the very least at the heart of all the beginner topics. An article that presents simply the unvarnished truth without backstory or opinion.
So, am I looking at taking Renton's classic strategy articles or Pyroxene's odds tables and discarding them? Kind of yes. For each topic I am thinking to consider carefully what the brief article on the topic must cover, draw inspiration from everything already posted, maybe rewrite parts of 5-10 existing digest posts to provide succinct coverage of the topic and then elevate this new best and authoritative description above all the alternatives. Do I want to throw away all the gold that is produced over the years? No, obviously not. But I would relegate it to a "further study" section rather than the immediate answer. And I would structure that, so it is more serviceable.
In a digest I would have a section for the current wisdom that lists the topics that are important covered in the best possible factual way. Below that would be a link to "The Wisdom of the Ages" - which will contain one link to each year, and within each year there will be one link to each month. Within each month will be the solid valuable posts produced during that month. One way of determining which ones they are is the star rating. Say if a post results in a 4 or more star rating it is linked from the "best of the month" post that becomes part of "Wisdom of the Ages". That way a lot of mediocre posts will fade further into the background and the good ones will be easier to find for those who want to do further study. I am not proposing doing this for the entire post archive - I'm proposing putting the structure in place and maintaining it going forward.
Many of these topics will have exercises against them. By exercises I don't mean one specific exercise that you can go through to put someone on a range or calculate EV in a situation. I mean it should outline how you pinpoint the information that allows you to do an exercise in this area and shows an example of how it is done. Like a hand range topic could refer to (a distillation of) Robb's posts on range practice. So each exercise will contain the process that is the exercise and an (excessively illustrated/explained) example.
What I am proposing is a project of some scope. The basic idea is to identify discreet topics, for each topic give some thought to and describe what the coverage of that topic must address - what the scope of the article must be - make a write-up of that topic - get feedback on it and get rid of fluffy language, opinions and unnecessary justifications - explain what topics are associated and in which way they are associated - identify potential exercises in the area and do the same for the exercise article.
Then when a newbie comes to the forum, posts a hand and is clueless - we'll quickly read it over, link him to the relevant 2-4 articles, tell him in this situation he needs to make an EV calculation (link to exercise telling him how to do that), put the opponent on a range (link to exercise telling him how to do that) come back to this post and post his results/thoughts based on what we ask him to do. Then when he comes back we say that he needs to spend some more time understanding equity - tell him to spend 6 hours on equty calculations with hand ranges (link to exercise etc) and then come back with another hand where he shows us what he's learned.
Complicated questions are complicated. Some things are style, some are opinion, some are strategy or based on image and flow. But some things are basic, and for the basic things we should have the truth on tap instead of having to construct it every time someone asks about it.
The other thing is that with a defined set of exercises (calculate showdown equity, put people on a range, calculate fold equity etc etc) - if these exercises are well enough described we can suggest as I mentioned in the example above that the person in question use x hours on this specific type of exercise. Rather than say "go study" and then when people are lost they don't learn and continue asking stupid questions - in this way we can suggest to them exactly the kind of study and exercise they should do.
This whole project is completely not worth it, if the results are going to be on the same level as and just an alternative to existing poker articles and the poker dictionary and so on. The process needs to cut to the bone of each topic and be universally seen as being true with no fluff or opinion so it can become not just true but also (hopefully) eternal. And for this the outcome of this project would need to be guaranteed a privileged place. The bankroll management style auto-linking is an obvious candidate, but even preferred treatment in the beginner's digest (as mentioned in the Wisdom of the Ages section) would be completely sufficient. But it would need to be clear which is the authoritative piece of truth and that should be a default answer that people stumble upon without reflection or research.
In terms of attribution (to authors) I'm a bit cold. The article that is the simple truth should not have the character of the author - or the opinions, backstory or justifications of the author. And it should also not be sacred. Let's say I write up something on hand ranges, we all agree that it's a solid piece and we put it up as the entry - time goes, I get hit by a bus and die, and it is found that my piece while fine is missing some crucial dimension. I would want it to be updated to be more correct and more true without bloating it with references to how I was the initial author and it was amended by this person for this reason yada yada. If using it as a resource all of that bloat is bad - the pure simple truth of the topic is what should be found when it is looked up.
When we get to advanced topics where style, strategy and preference become more of an issue there is much more room for author-styled, -justified, -argued and -attributed articles, but the core articles should focus on delivering the simple truth as simply as possible.
I'd be quite happy to contribute. I'm not particularly suited to writing articles of this type and would tend to put in lots of unnecessary fluff, but I certainly wouldn't mind giving it a stab - and I am particularly keen on the first and third stages - formulating the scope of an entry and defluffing it to make it as clean and simple as possible.
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rong
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
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Wow! Your WPP must have just doubled.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.
Fucking. Retarded.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Thank you Erpel for your contribution to the thread.
Unfortunately that will never happen because not enough people care enough to do it. This is not unreasonable -- people have spent tons of time and effort to get better at poker, and by helping others it incrementally makes the game harder, thus reducing their own bottom line. Just for an example, a few members, including more than one FTR moderator at the time, asked me to delete the hand combinations/blockers post you talked about above right after I made it because they thought it was too good to have just laying around in the open. I often question posting things like that myself, especially when it seems like 99 out of 100 people in this forum need to be spoon-fed (pun intended). But I enjoy helping people more than I enjoy making money, so yeah.
Anyway, what you described is basically what I used to do. I made those types of posts on blind stealing, raising after limpers, blocker/hand combination topics, a number of basic poker math topics, etc. The process you described very much reflects my teaching style.
@ChezJ and others, if I lock a post for those reasons I'm going to link them to the guidelines for posting. If they don't know what stats are or what reads are, then it's time for them to hit the search button.
In general, there's a line between facilitating the growth of a player and spoon-feeding them, and I'm usually going to tend to err on the side of avoiding spoon-feeding.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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nickatina-69
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Two Pair
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ottawa
Posts: 30
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more videos please?
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nickatina-69
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Two Pair
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ottawa
Posts: 30
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more microstakes videos would be sweet.
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"Hustlers don't bitch they grind hard and die rich"
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nish81
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 295
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I read through Erpel's post and support his idea
edit: and i didnt see spoon's post..pity poker is a <0 sum game
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<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.
JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
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Jason
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: TN
Posts: 883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Erpel
One thing that could be argued is currently not as obvious as would be useful to an abject beginner is a filter that tells us what is standard and what depends - what is just an opinion.
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If you play 6 tables or less, it almost always depends. If you play 10 to 24 tables, it's almost always standard ... this is all my opinion
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- Jason
 
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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i like erpel's post a lot. sometimes when i am looking for posts about a certain topic, say "pot control," the search function is basically useless because of the overload of posts that mention either one of those words in passing. renton's guide doesn't even use the term as far as i can tell.
maybe all that is needed is for the "learning begins here" sticky to be updated to include more definitive posts on certain concepts. after all, it already includes links to a bunch of good posts. just need to poll the community on what posts they think should be added to the sticky list.
for example, the moderator could come up with one concept or subject per week and let people nominate posts, then at the end of the week, add the one best post to the sticky.
ChezJ
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Could also do a concept of the week type thing. Thoughts?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Could be homework for beginners. Not necessarily concept for the week - maybe concept for the month? Encourage beginners to write up their own essays and post them - maybe have a concept of the week/month thread.
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celtic123
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: **Officially**The worst poster on FTR
Posts: 708
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Ill give it a go , give me something to research for a week , Ill see what I can come up with. And post a thread " what I tried to master this week"
I dont mind a flaming , its been a while.
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Dragon Slayer
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 228
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Could also do a concept of the week type thing. Thoughts?
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That could be a lot of work. Concept of the month maybe. You could have a thread where beginners put their thoughts on the subject or some HH they feel relate to the topic.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Erpel
Could be homework for beginners.
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I actually really like this idea. It will encourage a lot of the new players (and myself) to actually sit down, study the material, then post thoughts and relevant HHs on that weeks/months 'assignment.' We could start it off with really basic stuff like value betting, pot odds, implied odds, and just delve deeper and deeper. Then you could just sticky the previous assignments original posts so that the new guys that show up after its started can catch up and won't feel lost.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
3. bumping old goodies: some people like dranger do this from time to time.
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Your welcome. That is all. 
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TonyB73
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 414
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DanAronG
Wow! Your WPP must have just doubled.
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um, that was actually pretty short for him
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
It will encourage a lot of the new players (and myself) to actually sit down, study the material, then post thoughts and relevant HHs
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If you're not doing this already, then what ARE you doing? Maybe you should put up the signature you had going there for a while.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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rong
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Erpel
Could be homework for beginners.
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That's a brilliant idea. Would encourage people (and specifically me) to take study more seriously.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.
Fucking. Retarded.
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Kind of spoon to pretend to be aghast at the revelation that dranger doesn't do as much studying as he should.
The problem is... noone ever really tells you exactly how much you need to study or almost more importantly why.
The things you need to know to play poker well are all pretty simple. But to play poker well you need more than to know them. You need to structure the correct way to view and think through a hand and then you need to repeat this process even if it has no challenge and lots of boredom a million times very deliberately and let the brain become optimised in doing this process. The brain itself will develop shortcuts and your understanding will become deeper and deeper, but repetition is key.
Most often what beginners do is to hesitantly get to something that approximates the right process, pat themselves on the back and move on to the next topic. Getting something right once is not really helping anyone. You need to practice practice practice until you get better.
Like I saw something absolutely retarded on TV last night where karate katas were mentioned and my wife made a comment. When she started karate there black belts came on afterwards to do some playing with sticks (kendo?) and as part of their warm up they did the same katas that the newbies were learning. But when they did them it was like a different world - there was so much more precision, speed and power in their movements. Why? Because they were black belts? Because they had learned other fancy moves? No, because they had repeated those katas so many times that they were just really really good at them.
So here it is - if you want to study poker define one meaningful exercise. Like EV calculation or putting someone on a hand range, or do some hand combination additions or whatever. Once you have decided your exercise you formalise how you practice it. Then you prepare a huge stack of exercises for yourself so all the information is there and you just need to run through it. Then you do exercises for 1 hour and count how many you do. And you do the same type of exercise 1 hour a day for a month and by the end of the month you are hopefully completing twice as many exercises (or more) as you do the first time.
That way you get yourself into good habits (going through the right process) which helps stave off tilt - you will be more inclined to auto-pilot in the direction of the ingrained processes. Your brain becomes optimised in doing these kinds of processing and along with the speed with which you can carry out the exercise comes a more profound understanding of it which allows you to better understand connections between different poker topics and apply concepts more correctly more of the time.
Edit note: The key to real mastery of any topic is to get the basic process right and then through repetition achieve an EFFICIENCY| in doing the right thing.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
It will encourage a lot of the new players (and myself) to actually sit down, study the material, then post thoughts and relevant HHs
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If you're not doing this already, then what ARE you doing? Maybe you should put up the signature you had going there for a while. |
I'm not saying I don't study, it's just that I don't take it nearly as seriously as I should, and that you will probably come up with 'homework' assignments that I'll never have considered doing in the first place.
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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