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IowaSkinsFan
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10-29-2004, 10:03 PM
Post subject: Beating bad players
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I play with a lot of guys who aren't really loose, but are bad. For example they play a lot of mid pairs after 5x Blinds bet, and don't attempt to read players.
Today i lost 7 bucks ( We buy in with 5, but i was up. )
I had A8o in a 4 person game, many had left. I raise 5x Blinds, the stupid player has K7o but calls, not that stupid. The flop comes 875 8 and 5 of spades. I bet 5x blinds again. Yet the stupid player calls, even though the person ahead of me called also. Another card comes up, and to my luck it's a 7. Initially i put him on a straight draw because this guy likes playing straight draws, so I bet 5x Blinds again. But here's the catch, the 7 is also of spades. Regardless, the player raises it to 15x blinds. Looking at the way the betting had went. i saw little chance in his trips. The next card is an Ace also of spades. Now i feel pretty screwed, i dont think he was on the flush so i go all in with my A8 and he without a spade calls.
I see that he has won and i feel like someone robbed me. He played that hand so bad. I thought i should've won. How can I play this players? should i just keep playing the way i do, hoping i'll eventually go up, or do i play them somewhat differently?
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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put him to a bigger descion then the 5x blinds bets you were making. If the blinds were 10 cents and you bet 50 and i called with K7o and you bet 50 again on a flop that ive hit, im gonna call if not raise. then i turn my gin card. Just make bigger bets so they cant call with weak hands until they learn.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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melinda27
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 165
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why are you calling him a bad player. He had 2nd pair, called a 1/3 pot sized bet with it, caught trips. Reraised you and got you to call him down. Maybe he just reads you better than you read him.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by melinda27
why are you calling him a bad player.
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How do they say it these days.....
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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It was a dollar bet, we're just in highschool, a dollar for us is a lot. You don't think it's bad that a guy calls a buck in a 5 dollar buy in with 2nd pair. when someone ahead of him already called my dollar bet? when there was a straight and a flush draw on the board? maybe im wrong.
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melinda27
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 165
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Heres what I would be thinking if I'm him in this hand, lets get past the fact that he's in there with K7.....the flop comes down with the possible straight, 2 to the flush and me holding 2nd pair. The flop doesnt look like anything that would help a 5X preflop BB bet so when you bet out 1/3 of the pot i'm thinking 1 of 2 things, you're holding something like AK AQ and missed the flop and are trying to take it down right there, or you're on a flush or 1 card straight draw. I dont think you've hit the straight because most people wont bet 1/3 pot if you flopped it especially with 2 to the flush it would either be a pot sized bet to take it down right there, or a check in hopes of the turn missing the flush and slowplaying your straight hoping to trap someone later. When the person in front of me calls your dollar that leaves what, 4 dollars in the pot and costs me 1 dollar to see the turn card. so for 1 dollar all i need to be sure of is that 25% of the time i've got you beat, if you'd make the same bet on a straight draw, a flush draw, or 2 overcards theres no way I cant call that bet and at least take a card off.
The turn brings my 2nd 7, but also hits the flush, no help to the straight and no help to your overcards. You make another weak bet at the turn and I reraise you to see what exactly you might have if you've hit the flush then i'm expecting you to push right there and its easy to lay my hand down. You just call so the flush is no longer a threat to my hand and i'm feeling pretty good that you've either got a straight draw or still clinging to your overcards, the top pair still isnt something i'm considering, especially since i've got it dominated right now. The river brings the Ace and even though i'm not liking seeing the 4th spade hit the board what i'm really thinking about is the straight never came and if he's on overcards he just hit and i hope he bets into me. Since overcards were one of the hands I had you on and seeing the ace of spades hit i'm more likely to think you were playing suited overcards as hard as you were. Even though you werent suited you had top pair with top kicker and that accounts for why you have stayed in so far, but i wouldnt have thought of that with the preflop and weak flop action. When you go all in with 4 spades on the board i'm calling you but not feeling great about it but still pretty sure that i've got the hand won.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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thanks, i'm not as pissed about this hand now, last night i got it back 
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~*TheLegend*~
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 11
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Heck if nothing less the 3rd 7 is 22 to 1 to come out... He might be paying you more than your losing in the long run by calling with mid pair. And of course, this isn't considering the odds of the K or the A.
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If you wiggle it more that twice, your playing with it!
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DJShmee
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 14
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by melinda27
Heres what I would be thinking if I'm him in this hand, lets get past the fact that he's in there with K7.....the flop comes down with the possible straight, 2 to the flush and me holding 2nd pair. The flop doesnt look like anything that would help a 5X preflop BB bet so when you bet out 1/3 of the pot i'm thinking 1 of 2 things, you're holding something like AK AQ and missed the flop and are trying to take it down right there, or you're on a flush or 1 card straight draw. I dont think you've hit the straight because most people wont bet 1/3 pot if you flopped it especially with 2 to the flush it would either be a pot sized bet to take it down right there, or a check in hopes of the turn missing the flush and slowplaying your straight hoping to trap someone later. When the person in front of me calls your dollar that leaves what, 4 dollars in the pot and costs me 1 dollar to see the turn card. so for 1 dollar all i need to be sure of is that 25% of the time i've got you beat, if you'd make the same bet on a straight draw, a flush draw, or 2 overcards theres no way I cant call that bet and at least take a card off.
The turn brings my 2nd 7, but also hits the flush, no help to the straight and no help to your overcards. You make another weak bet at the turn and I reraise you to see what exactly you might have if you've hit the flush then i'm expecting you to push right there and its easy to lay my hand down. You just call so the flush is no longer a threat to my hand and i'm feeling pretty good that you've either got a straight draw or still clinging to your overcards, the top pair still isnt something i'm considering, especially since i've got it dominated right now. The river brings the Ace and even though i'm not liking seeing the 4th spade hit the board what i'm really thinking about is the straight never came and if he's on overcards he just hit and i hope he bets into me. Since overcards were one of the hands I had you on and seeing the ace of spades hit i'm more likely to think you were playing suited overcards as hard as you were. Even though you werent suited you had top pair with top kicker and that accounts for why you have stayed in so far, but i wouldnt have thought of that with the preflop and weak flop action. When you go all in with 4 spades on the board i'm calling you but not feeling great about it but still pretty sure that i've got the hand won.
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Impressive. Almost exactly how I'm playing this. My only catch is being wary with 4 spades on the board, especially with a reraise after the 3rd one came down on the turn. You could also consider putting him on high cards, one of them being a spade. The worse the player is the more he chases IME.
The hand was probably too hard for the guy to lay down, I would have folded to your AI push because it was a good move and the chances of you holding a spade.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
It was a dollar bet, we're just in highschool, a dollar for us is a lot.
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Skinsfan, you have to think about how much money you're betting relative to the size of the pot. A $1 bet is a sizeable bet if the pot is $1, but if the pot is $5 and you bet $1, then it is considered a small bet, and it is probably worth it for your opponents to call if they have almost any type of hand, even 3rd best pair. It doesn't matter if you're in high school or how much money everyone makes.
A good rule of thumb for no limit is to bet the size of the pot if you think you have the best hand. This way you are almost always giving the other players incorrect pot odds to draw out on you. So if there are $3 in the pot already, and you flop top pair top kicker, you want to bet at least $3.
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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You had two pair with a pair on the board and most of a flush on the board. You were bluffing. If he knew or suspected you were bluffing, he didn't play badly at all.
A8 is not a PF raising hand except in certain situations. A pair of 8s doesn't withstand much betting unless you pair your A on the turn. Especially when there are scares that don't relate to you.
This hand was not played terribly well by anybody.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
should i just keep playing the way i do, hoping i'll eventually go up
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No. Unless I am at the table with you. In which case yes.
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FTWSnoW
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 17
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I play with my friends all the time (they're bad).. I used to lose way more when I played tAggy like I would against good people... I dropped starting hands to anything Q8 or above, suited connectors, and any pocket pair to see the flop (unless I got raised) and I've been winning the close to all of our games. You just cant wait around for the huge hands cause while you do someone else is gonna take a big pot with his pair of jacks against the other guys who were raising with mid pairs.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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awesome
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
It was a dollar bet, we're just in highschool, a dollar for us is a lot.
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quality bump
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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I got leveled.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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TheSyphon
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland
Posts: 59
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All-In without a Spade AND Boat possibilities? 
When I get around a real idiot, I leave (if possible). Someone is going to win big and someone is going to lose big, but it's too much of a coin flip, he's unreadable and I'm tilting the whole time.
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MuddyWicket
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK, Brighton
Posts: 368
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wow. I was just reading someone high level theorem then this....
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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One of the best FTR bumps ever
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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MuddyWicket
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK, Brighton
Posts: 368
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I think it is actually great for people like me who are closer to the ISF I see in this thread than the one I read today. Being embarressed about this thread is like being embarressed about childhood photos with no clothes on, you can't help it but really its plain stupid.
she says it best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfozcs7W5x0
Edit: oh yeah and quality bump.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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lol
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ChrisBCritter
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Falmouth, ME
Posts: 781
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B E A Utiful bump.
A8o vs K7o on a 4-flush board with neither having the flush! and the panties in a bunch over milk-money! so cute.
Nice video find Muddy!
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Hey knucklehead! Bonk!
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Just for kicks lets bump it again.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,460
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Epic development
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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gobirds54
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3
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i think he should have folded preflop no question.
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Taicho
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 102
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Took me a second to notice the date...
Honestly I'm glad this was bumped, because it shows even Mr. Made-30k-on-a-plane-ride was once like me =\
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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Thought this was a level of truly biblical proportions until I spotted the date.
Nh on the bump lol.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by melinda27
why are you calling him a bad player.
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How do they say it these days.....
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Can you spell that phonetically?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Against bad players just play A8o for bluff-catching value imo
Table "Pastorale" Seat 3 is the button.
Seat 2: HERO (£212.45 in chips)
Seat 3: Djmorris (£133 in chips)
Seat 5: Theraiser (£210.90 in chips)
Seat 6: JornLeth (£259 in chips)
Seat 8: Simmel (£200 in chips)
Theraiser: posts small blind £1
JornLeth: posts big blind £2
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to HERO  
HERO: raises to £7
Djmorris: folds
Theraiser: calls £6
JornLeth: folds
----- FLOP -----   
Theraiser: bets £12
HERO: calls £12
----- TURN ----- 
Theraiser: bets £12
HERO: calls £12
----- RIVER ----- 
Theraiser: bets £75
HERO: calls £75
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Theraiser: shows   (A Pair of Fives, King high)
HERO: shows (A Pair of Fives, Ace high)
HERO collected £212 from Main pot
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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oh my. iowaskinsfan sure has grown
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oomike01
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Two Pair
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Moreno Valley,CA
Posts: 36
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if the blinds are .05/.10, then is a proper raise pf 5x BB on average.\?
Generally speaking of course. I know there are situations when table play forces adjustments upward sometimes downward
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oomike01
if the blinds are .05/.10, then is a proper raise pf 5x BB on average.\?
Generally speaking of course. I know there are situations when table play forces adjustments upward sometimes downward
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4x + 1x for each limper
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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This thread is epic on so many levels. Rilla was still dispensing advice, ISF gets schooled by some guy with around 150 posts, and of course this:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
It was a dollar bet, we're just in highschool, a dollar for us is a lot.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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