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Alibi

12-18-2005, 04:41 AM Post subject: Basic set playing

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: St. Paul or DC

Posts: 449

Alibi is an unknown quantity at this point

Lately I've been getting burned a lot slow playing my sets to straights and flushes. This hand came along and I want to know my line:

PokerStars Game #3364220273: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/12/18 - 00:35:04 (ET)
Table 'Wratislavia' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Shinebox666 ($12.50 in chips)
Seat 3: mell123 ($48.95 in chips)
Seat 4: HoboJaws ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 5: whatthefah? ($16 in chips)
Seat 6: danimal703 ($10 in chips)
Seat 7: jmaj43 ($8.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Beldar69 ($16.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Chris_852 ($25 in chips)
Chris_852: posts small blind $0.10
Shinebox666: posts big blind $0.25
Detonate: sits out
danimal703: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HoboJaws [5s 5h]
mell123: folds
HoboJaws: calls $0.25
whatthefah?: calls $0.25
danimal703: checks
jmaj43: folds
Beldar69: folds
Chris_852: calls $0.15
Shinebox666: checks
*** FLOP *** [2c 5d 9c]
Chris_852: checks
Shinebox666: checks
HoboJaws: checks
whatthefah?: bets $0.50
danimal703: calls $0.50
Chris_852: folds
Shinebox666: folds
HoboJaws: raises $1 to $1.50

I raised because I assumed one of them was on the flush draw and I wanted to get that shit out.

whatthefah?: calls $1
danimal703: folds
*** TURN *** [2c 5d 9c] [5c]
HoboJaws: bets $2

I bet because I thought checking again would be too obvious that I was slow-playing.

whatthefah?: folds
HoboJaws collected $4.55 from pot

How were my lines?

TrapperAB: you know, I really should have named myself after the mandibles of a homeless person

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Lukie

12-18-2005, 06:28 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: back with a vengeance

Posts: 3,307

flop: lead out or make a respectable check-raise. As played, villain is getting about 3.5:1 to call on a flush draw, and is correct to do so.

turn: you just repped a lot of strength with a check-raise, follow through on the turn (bet more).

12-18-2005, 07:22 AM

#3 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,855

TPTK, two-pair, sets...There is an art to playing these hands. You don't want to bet them too fast because you want to make money on these hands. You also don't want to slow play the "stuffing" out of them either, because you don't want somebody to hit a bigger hand and "wake up" and whip your behind.

I will fast play sets and I will slow play sets. It depends on the player(s) you are up against, what hands they are possibly playing, and what the board is giving everyone. If you are going to slow play you better have the discipline to lay down when that scare card hits and your opponent(s) REALLY wake up.

dsaxton

12-18-2005, 07:34 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

Bet the flop, bet the turn.

On the flop, what reason did you have to think either of the two players left to act would bet if you checked to them?

Alibi

12-18-2005, 07:54 AM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: St. Paul or DC

Posts: 449

Quote:

On the flop, what reason did you have to think either of the two players left to act would bet if you checked to them?

None other than that it's your average 25nl table.

TrapperAB: you know, I really should have named myself after the mandibles of a homeless person

Telepath

12-18-2005, 09:32 AM

#6 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 105

On a low NL table this is the kind of flop that attracts many draws.

First of all, like the others said, I'd lead out betting about 75% of the pot. If nobody does have anything, they won't call anyway. They will most likely call it with a flush or straight draw, and also with top pair.

However, if you do play it for a check-raise, then you should know that your check raise size is WAY too small. You say you want to "get rid of" the draw, there's no way I would fold a draw for a 1 dollar raise, and neither will anyone else.

You need to check raise at least 75% of the pot including bets and possibly more.

T.

No limit Hold'Em - hours of boredom followed by moments of sheer terror.

pgil

12-19-2005, 03:32 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,103

i think the CR size is too small as well, but for a different reason. it seems like you just want to get more money into the pot, and lets the table know that you are sitting on a nice hand, most likely a set or top two pair. this should scare the guy holding TP, and the guy holding the flush draw. Now, if you bet out on the flop, TP will call, and so will flush draw, but they cant put you on anything more than a pair. in fact, TP or flush draw may even raise you, which is good because then you can check-call or check-raise the turn to get an even bigger pot. but, as it stands, it looks like you just made a boat, and the flush isnt going to call here.

as played, a check on the turn might look like you are scared of the flush, or it might look like a made flush. a bet just scares away TP. let him bet into you, or bet the river for him if he checks behind. at least that gives him one more card to hopefully improve his hand.

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

Telepath

12-19-2005, 05:43 PM

#8 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 105

^ Good point. Leading out and betting your quads is... well, not so good. There is after all a probability that the five did not help you.

T.

No limit Hold'Em - hours of boredom followed by moments of sheer terror.

Alibi

12-19-2005, 10:26 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: St. Paul or DC

Posts: 449

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telepath

^ Good point. Leading out and betting your quads is... well, not so good. There is after all a probability that the five did not help you.

T.

What?

TrapperAB: you know, I really should have named myself after the mandibles of a homeless person

Aplomado

12-19-2005, 10:33 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 520

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alibi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telepath

^ Good point. Leading out and betting your quads is... well, not so good. There is after all a probability that the five did not help you.

T.

What?

As in it scared the shit out of everybody.

Fnord

12-19-2005, 10:38 PM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

TPTK, two-pair, sets...There is an art to playing these hands. blah blah blah....slow play...blah blah blah laying down sets blah blah blah.

I bet so much without a hand so I get action when I have it. The pot gets so big so fast that I really don't worry much about laying down sets. Problem solved.

GAMB00L!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

edudlive

12-19-2005, 10:43 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: 100NL 6max

Posts: 623

Rounders is wrong, slowplaying is NOT good.

Just bet out on both streets. It goes against typical logic that a very strong hand bets there (not that 25NL players have much of a thought in their head but the point remains the same), but just for the mix change it up every once in a while and check call (do this very sparringly).

I'd rather have this result:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP ($66.90)
Button ($44.50)
Hero ($129.80)
BB ($34.80)
UTG ($149.90)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5

, 5

.
1 fold, MP raises to $2, Button calls $2, Hero calls $1.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($7) Q

, 6

, 5

(3 players)
Hero bets $5, MP folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: $6.65

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $12.

Than the river decision that this slowplayed set gave me:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB ($131.05)
UTG ($55.25)
MP ($15.60)
CO ($37.25)
Hero ($136.50)
SB ($100.85)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4

, 4

.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, Hero calls $1, SB raises to $5, 1 fold, UTG calls $4, CO folds, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($17) J

, T

, 4

(3 players)
SB bets $16, UTG folds, Hero calls $16.

Turn: ($49) Q

(2 players)
SB bets $16, Hero calls $16.

River: ($81) 9

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $81

Results in white below:
SB has As Jc (one pair, jacks).
Hero has 4d 4h (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: Hero wins $81.

(16:02:25) Fleece: u think ur liked now?
(16:02:31) Fleece: that u got real life friends
(16:02:48) Fleece: enjoy ur real life friends
(16:03:08) Fleece: ur e-friends dont wanna knwo about u anymore

Miffed22001

12-19-2005, 11:49 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

You play sets like this
Note: you just dont go broke too often

** Game ID 617564435 starting - 2005-12-19 15:57:35
** Gleem Beam [Hold 'em] (0.25|0.50 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- Da_Koen sitting in seat 1 with $50.20
- travkingen sitting in seat 2 with $50.60 [Sitting out]
- joel80 sitting in seat 4 with $50.50
- Hugohot sitting in seat 5 with $38.90
- Miffed sitting in seat 6 with $71.87
- UncleDuffalo sitting in seat 7 with $13.85 [Dealer]
- Cipisor sitting in seat 8 with $43.10
- jimmyo001 sitting in seat 9 with $53.25
- Sarika71 sitting in seat 10 with $50.20

Cipisor posted the small blind - $0.25
jimmyo001 posted the big blind - $0.50
** Dealing card to Miffed: 5 of Diamonds, 5 of Spades
Sarika71 called - $0.50
Da_Koen called - $0.50
joel80 called - $0.50
Hugohot folded
Miffed called - $0.50
UncleDuffalo called - $0.50
Cipisor called - $0.50
jimmyo001 checked

** Dealing the flop: Jack of Hearts, 5 of Hearts, 3 of Spades
Cipisor checked
jimmyo001 checked
Sarika71 bet - $1.50
Da_Koen folded
joel80 folded
Miffed called - $1.50
UncleDuffalo raised - $4.50
Cipisor folded
jimmyo001 folded
Sarika71 called - $4.50
Miffed went all-in - $69.87
UncleDuffalo went all-in - $8.85
Sarika71 went all-in - $43.70
UncleDuffalo shows: 3 of Clubs, 3 of Diamonds
Sarika71 shows: Jack of Clubs, Jack of Spades

** Dealing the turn: 6 of Hearts

** Dealing the river: 6 of Diamonds
Sarika Wins pot

Lukie

12-20-2005, 04:16 AM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: back with a vengeance

Posts: 3,307

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telepath

^ Good point. Leading out and betting your quads is... well, not so good. There is after all a probability that the five did not help you.

T.

What's the alternative?

Check-check?

KoRnholio

12-20-2005, 04:40 AM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

I've decided to take up the philosophy of taking the initiative to bet my monster hands, if I get action, I get action. If not, then it's unlikely I was going to get action by slowplaying either.

Ultimate Bet Pot-Limit Omaha High, $.50 BB (9 handed) converter

MP1 ($36.75)
MP2 ($49.25)
Hero ($69.50)
CO ($49.75)
Button ($36.60)
SB ($69.70)
BB ($57.55)
UTG ($47.50)
UTG+1 ($36.90)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A

, 7

, Q

.
3 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, Button calls $1.75, 2 folds.

Flop: ($4.25) A

, A

[color:#0000FF](3 players)[/color]
Hero bets $2, Button raises to $4, Hero raises to $8.5, Button calls $4.50.

Turn: ($21.25) 9

(3 players)
Hero bets $9, Button goes all-in for $26.35, Hero calls.

River: ($73.95) T

(3 players)

Final Pot: $73.95

Results in white below:
Button has 8s Th Qd Qh (full house, aces full of queens).
Hero has Ah 7s Qs Qc (quad aces)

Outcome: Hero wins $70.95. [/color]

(silly thing butchered my HH)

Granted the guy was a tard, but I gave him reason to think that I didn't have the ace (betting out, raising right away). Had I slowplayed I'm sure he wouldn't have given me his stack.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

bdawg56kg

12-20-2005, 05:20 AM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Honolulu

Posts: 1,201

I'm finding that leading out with a set into a preflop raiser is a great way to disguise the strength of your hand and get paid off better. At 100NL the basic opponent knows the generic line for a set against a preflop raise: CR flop, lead turn and river, or check/call flop and CR turn. But when they are bet into on a 259R board holding AA, they automatically put the person on top pair or a weak overpair, and are more willing to go broke with it. Here's a good example. I thought the turn where the jack paired the board would surely kill my action, as I was trying to rep a hand like AJ, but I guess he was too married to his AA to let it go.

Anyway, just thought I'd share. I'm curious as to what others think of this. Fnord?

Texas Hold'em $1-$1 NL (real money), #1,610,607,416
Table Bulawayo, 20 Dec 2005 1:05 AM ET
Seat 1: maxpower19 ($77.60 in chips)
Seat 2: billysunkwi ($102.75 in chips)
Seat 3: squidrow ($38.40 in chips)
Seat 4: B_Rice56 ($102.50 in chips)
Seat 5: handlikafoot ($109.55 in chips)
Seat 6: iyourbadgirl ($15 in chips)
Seat 7: xImGonnaWinx ($25 in chips)
Seat 8: Frog69 ($172.30 in chips)
Seat 9: catchdubs ($60.65 in chips)
Seat 10: J_Doe ($98 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
catchdubs posts blind ($0.50), J_Doe posts blind ($1), xImGonnaWinx posts blind ($1).

Dealt to B_Rice56: [ 3C,3S ]

PRE-FLOP
maxpower19 folds, billysunkwi folds, squidrow calls $1, B_Rice56 calls $1, handlikafoot bets $4, iyourbadgirl folds, xImGonnaWinx folds, Frog69 folds, catchdubs folds, J_Doe calls $3, squidrow folds, B_Rice56 calls $3.

FLOP [board cards 5D,JC,3D ]
J_Doe checks, B_Rice56 bets $7, handlikafoot bets $20, J_Doe folds, B_Rice56 calls $13.

TURN [board cards 5D,JC,3D,JS ]
B_Rice56 checks, handlikafoot bets $20, B_Rice56 bets $55, handlikafoot calls $35.

RIVER [board cards 5D,JC,3D,JS,6D ]
B_Rice56 bets $23.50 and is all-in, handlikafoot calls $23.50.

SHOWDOWN
B_Rice56 shows [ 3C,3S ]
handlikafoot shows [ AH,AD ]
B_Rice56 wins $209.50.
SUMMARY
Dealer: Frog69
Pot: $211.50, (including rake: $2)
maxpower19, loses $0
billysunkwi, loses $0
squidrow, loses $1
B_Rice56, bets $102.50, collects $209.50, net $107
handlikafoot, loses $102.50
iyourbadgirl, loses $0
xImGonnaWinx, loses $1
Frog69, loses $0
catchdubs, loses $0.50
J_Doe, loses $4

Miffed22001

12-20-2005, 06:18 PM

#17 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

leading out on the flop is definalty a new strategy too.
I think it works because players cold call the flop and raise the turn with overpair
Therefore when i check raise/open raise the turn, as i might sometimes do with an overpair and you reraise push i get put into a difficult situation (although a reraise often tells me im beat)
In this sense if you lead the flop can you check the turn? or either cold call and bet hard on the river (or value it for that matter) or check raise the turn.
Thie single biggest element for me when u have the set is maximising profit without letting opp think hes beat (more difficult against better opps)
thoughts?

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