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Genitruc
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05-04-2006, 07:55 PM
Post subject: Basic AK Preflop Strategy when Reraised
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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I am a tourney player learning to be profitable in ring. It is going well.
Point of my post :
Have been letting go of Ak a whole lot to reraises preflop (will miss flop most of time, slim possibility of domination which would suck, basically -EV calling hoping to hit flop vs jj/qq). Have been doing this particularly often against shitty players who I can chip away at slowly.
One of my biggest leaks when jumping into ring was jamming with Ak hoping for fold equity against donkeys. Thus, I was a donkey since people would call pretty often w 55-qq and the odd aq-aj...
Wish I could be concise like Gabe but I can't for now. Other ideas about AK in face of reraise cash-game? For me at NL100 I'm just letting it go (unlees against shorty/comPLETE donkey).
Note : this is mainly on B 2 B sites where things are relatively tight short-handed
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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most players around those stakes have a very tight reraising range and you can safely and easily dump it to a reraise in most cases. If their range is a big pair + AK, or something like that (many players are even tighter), what's the point of playing?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Exactly. Thanks Lukie. I'm learning that AK plays so differntly in ring that in tourneys...
BTW did you get rivered in a big way on FullTilt last night after buying in shortstacked? If it was you, that was brutal  Then again, even if it wasn't you, it was brutal all the same 
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I will push vs. shorstacks often and donks occasionaly (in 6max). But dumping against most players is probably +EV. Even if you hit a K or A, you can't be sure you are ahead. For the times you hit your hand and it actually holds up, there are probably too many other times you get stacked. When you do hit, QQ- won't pay you off all the time. So many people lose money with AK.
1. Force the tough decsions on your opponents.
2. Remove yourself from tough situations until you become very good at reading players and boards.
3.
4. Profit
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Ak is a shitty hand
too easily overplayed.
at b2b it goes straight in the muck
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STIdrivr
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern california
Posts: 580
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Ya your only supposed to play AA and KK pre flop lol
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by STIdrivr
Ya your only supposed to play AA and KK pre flop lol
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No, random $100ish NLHE players don't re-raise often enough. They graduate out of the $10,$25,$50 games learning to tighten up and control pots, but haven't yet learned how to open up and get action from people who pay attention or have HUDs.
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fasin8ing
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,063
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TPTK doesnt do so well in ring. Unless you flop the nut straight or have a redraw to the nut straight for a nice price.... A K needs to see five cards, but damn... It can get pricey. Dump it or re raise so you know where you stand.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
Dump it or re raise so you can lose a big pot.
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FYP
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
Dump it or re raise so you can lose a big pot.
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FYP |
yes. count yourself lucky to have six outs in this spot, and then you still need to actually hit one. if youre gonna play AK that strongly, then play 65s the same, cause it can make the nuts too.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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I don't play MTT's or SnG's, so take my post for what it's worth.
I played in one MTT in Febuary for $10, 1700 players, $20,000+ pot guaranteed. Whenever I had AK, I'd live and die by it by pushing all in against re-raises preflop, and I'd push against any raises pre-flop. I won 7 of 8 and came in 9th place. I remember playing one other hand the whole tournament... JJ - who won against AK!
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by STIdrivr
Ya your only supposed to play AA and KK pre flop lol
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No, random $100ish NLHE players don't re-raise often enough. They graduate out of the $10,$25,$50 games learning to tighten up and control pots, but haven't yet learned how to open up and get action from people who pay attention or have HUDs. |
HUD is a life saver...
BTW, is there anyway you can see how often somebody is repopping a raise preflop using PAHUD? Or any software for that matter.
Anyway, this whole AK thing is so situation dependant. If you raise AK OTB and a very good, agressive player repots it, you should most definately see a flop.
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geoffm33
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 166
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Just ran accross this artice: http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/dani...t_from=&ucat=&
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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3-betting with 3-4 percent of hands is hugely +ev against loose raisers.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
TPTK doesnt do so well in ring. Unless you flop the nut straight or have a redraw to the nut straight for a nice price.... A K needs to see five cards, but damn... It can get pricey. Dump it or re raise so you know where you stand.
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TPTK is great in ring! You just have to have the dicipline to lay it down when raised. Bad players call down my TPTK all the time with their draws or TPMK or MPshittyK.
If the board reads Q7224 and you have AQ and have been betting at the pot every street and villain checks to you on the river: Bet half the pot. If he's drawing to a flush, he folds, if he's been calling with a pair, he's not going to stop now, if he's been very passive and just calling everything to this point - there is no reason to put him on a hand. Voila! 100bb pot.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItPayette
Voila! 100bb pot.
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Yeah, whatever, TPTK g00t for stacking half-buys.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by geoffm33
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Touney poker is a different beast. The shallow stacks and escalating blinds gives everyone wider ranges and makes it less of a mistake to put in money with the worst of it.
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geoffm33
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by geoffm33
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Touney poker is a different beast. The shallow stacks and escalating blinds gives everyone wider ranges and makes it less of a mistake to put in money with the worst of it. |
The concept of the article is applicable to ring and tournament style play alike. The main point of the article is explaining just how dangerous it can be to over value AK. For example:
2d 2s 53.05
Ah Kc 46.95
and...
Ah Kc 58.07
7d 8d 41.93
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strawman
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 207
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by geoffm33
The concept of the article is applicable to ring and tournament style play alike. The main point of the article is explaining just how dangerous it can be to over value AK. For example:
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And this article suggest pushing all in pre-flop: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...es/?a_id=14805
I guess we can flip a coin as to which is better article 
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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that cardplayer article is specifically for tournament poker. it assumes you have 15BB in front of you. reraising all in preflop is very good if you have 15BB in front of you. It is not however when you have 100BB in front of you. With 100BB in front of you, you are never going to be called by a hand you're ahead of. i can count on one hand the number of times i've seen an all-in called by a hand ak beats.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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strawman
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 207
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[quote="Greedo017"]that cardplayer article is specifically for tournament poker.
[quote]
Not exactly sure where you are infering this from.
If the author's sole intent was to describe a tournament situation he could have simply said something along the lines of, "You have 15BB and they will increase on the next hand and your effective M will halve- you look down at AK- what do you do?" I doubt he went through all the vebiage because he gets paid by the word.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
With 100BB in front of you, you are never going to be called by a hand you're ahead of. i can count on one hand the number of times i've seen an all-in called by a hand ak beats.
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This part doesn't make logical sense me.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by strawman
Not exactly sure where you are infering this from.
If the author's sole intent was to describe a tournament situation he could have simply said something along the lines of, "You have 15BB and they will increase on the next hand and your effective M will halve- you look down at AK- what do you do?" I doubt he went through all the vebiage because he gets paid by the word.
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i'm inferring it because he said you have 15BB in front of you. When would you ever have 15BB in front of you in a cash game?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by strawman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
With 100BB in front of you, you are never going to be called by a hand you're ahead of. i can count on one hand the number of times i've seen an all-in called by a hand ak beats.
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This part doesn't make logical sense me. |
The deeper the stacks, the higher quality the hand necessary to push with, no? To the point that pushing with 15BB is really a completely different situation than pushing with 100BB?
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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How come nobody ever mentions the fact that when AK hits, pretty much all other hands (that aren't dominated) hate the flop. And when you outflop it, it's generally easy to get paid off against people who over-value their strong 1pr type hands.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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and since when in NLHE ring does your preflop equity have anything to do with how well a hand plays post-flop. A2o is a favorite vs KQs, but we all know that it plays much, much worse after the flop.
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jameseyb
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sapley, Cambs.
Posts: 169
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Quote:
The deeper the stacks, the higher quality the hand necessary to push with, no?
I'm not sure I agree with you. Ok, I don't play at what I am assuming is your level, but I have seen a lot of people with deep stacks (more than 15BB in any case, hell, way more) pushing just to scare people away from marginal pots.
In fact, I'd say it might be more common on lower limits than you'd think. If you know that people fold to strength in a bet, what better way to get someone to fold than to push with a decent stack? If your hand is marginal and so is their's, it's a coinflip and you _could_ double up. If they get scared, you win. If they have a better hand, they are not going to fold, so you lose.
Ok, long-term it's bad and probably/certainly -EV, but do beginners care?
J
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jameseyb
Show me the light
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Ok james, you asked for it. You don't push 100 bets back at a preflop reraise in cashgame with AK unless you have a tight read that a worse hand might call such a monstrous bet of gigantic donktastic proportions. The reason is obvious. A worse hand doesn't call you often enough, and chances are someone that reraised you doesn't have a terrible hand to begin with.
Min stakes players will in fact call your 3-bet push with less than AK, and often do. It's still not often enough though.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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