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Bad turn spot with AA

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Carroters

03-02-2009, 03:50 PM Post subject: Bad turn spot with AA

#1 (permalink)

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Villain is 23/4/1 over 24 hands and hasn't reloaded after losing a little of his stack. He seems very passive, but I don't have enough hands to be sure.

What's our line on this turn?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($21.14)
MP ($22.87)
Hero (CO) ($29.24)
Button ($19.67)
SB ($3.80)
BB ($18.30)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

, A

2 folds, Hero bets $0.70, 2 folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.50) 6

, 5

, 3

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.15, BB calls $1.15

Turn: ($3.80) 8

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.85, BB raises $6

Total pot: $9.50

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TLR

03-02-2009, 03:57 PM

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Interesting spot, what hands do you think he is calling a PFR and a flop bet and raises the turn with ?
It could be a flopped set but a hand like 78 is also very likely, I think I reraise here

Carroters

03-02-2009, 04:07 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Pre flop, I don't have enough info to be sure but I'd probably go with a range like:

22-1010, A2s+, A9+, K9s+, KJ+, 67s+, 79s+.

Gshark

03-02-2009, 08:45 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

...I think I reraise here

I agree. My guess he's on a draw. Make him pay for it.

d0zer

03-02-2009, 08:59 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Seems like a relatively standard fold spot imo.

passive players don't generally raise draws. He just hit hit gutshot, 2pr or decided to stop slowplaying his set. Even the bottom of his range (pr + OESD) has decent equity vs us and it's never good to be praying for that while ignoring the rest of his range.

TAGurit

03-02-2009, 09:50 PM

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maybe a standerd fold but there is no way i can fold AA is this spot. im raising and happy about it.

d0zer

03-02-2009, 10:08 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TAGurit

maybe a standerd fold but there is no way i can fold

This makes about as much sense as a two-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

BooG690

03-02-2009, 10:34 PM

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I'd love to know what this guy had. He was definitely slowplaying 56s and wanted to get his money in on the turn. Or maybe A8? I'm CONFUSED!

What position was he in?

Carroters

03-02-2009, 11:30 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

What position was he in?

Not sure what you mean by this, he was obv the BB from the HH.

Anyways, I totally agree with dozer on this hand and unfortunately I can't tell you what he had since I folded.

I considered peeling and folding to a river bet but decided this was too spewy since I felt I'd almost alway be facing a river bet and had 2 outs to improve. I felt his range here was really strong and this call flop c/r turn line looks terrifying from a passive player like this guy. There may be some 1 pair hands with oesds etc in here, but the vast majority of his range is 2 pair+ imo, and I see no way this is ever a bluff given my line and his passiveness.

I'd be interested in someone who advised to ship it in here giving a decent reason, range or explanation for raising?

Micro2Macro

03-03-2009, 01:08 AM

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Don't take this as advice because I'm a postlfop donk...

but I'm wondering, does anyone else ever check behind here to control the size of the pot? Obviously this is player dependent and if draws or higher pocket pairs are mostly his range betting is probably best, I just don't see what we'll get 3 streets of value from other than a straight or a set, and both pretty much rape our hand so we aren't actually getting value since we're beat.

I check behind the turn because I don't really know where I'm at if I'm played back at because the board is pretty dry. I'll probably end up folding here too often to bluffs or weaker pairs.

If you check turn and call a river bet, it will likely be the same size you would have made on the turn. You'll get to see what villain holds AND you'll basically get the same amount of value dollar wise (although if villain bets the river his bluffing frequency is probably alot higher in this scenerio compared to c/r the turn), because again what hands are we going to get 3 streets of value from.

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swiggidy

03-03-2009, 01:19 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

but I'm wondering, does anyone else ever check behind here to control the size of the pot?

Misapplication.

This is microstakes. Passive villains will make terrible call downs with one pair hands, call down with draws, etc. This 8 isn't a scare card for us. It only really improves 78, 68, 88. He's not likely raising the first two.

I'm never folding here. If he pushes a blank river, you can fold. However, most passive villains will not push here with a made hand and bet $5 "for value" but will just as often have A8, 99-JJ.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Micro2Macro

03-03-2009, 01:26 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

but I'm wondering, does anyone else ever check behind here to control the size of the pot?

Misapplication.

This is microstakes. Passive villains will make terrible call downs with one pair hands, call down with draws, etc. This 8 isn't a scare card for us. It only really improves 78, 68, 88. He's not likely raising the first two.

I'm never folding here. If he pushes a blank river, you can fold. However, most passive villains will not push here with a made hand and bet $5 "for value" but will just as often have A8, 99-JJ.

So true. Maybe I'm sucking at 10nl right now because I've forgotten this, lol. As you said we're ahead of so much that'll pay us off, betting turn sounds better now.

Carroters

03-03-2009, 01:36 AM

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I quite like the check behind line actually, it certainly protects our stack and protects us from making a bad decision if raised.

I disagree about not ever getting 3 streets though micro. A passive staiony guy at 20NL 6 max will easily call 3 streets with 78 89 99 1010, I do find thin value betting profitable vs the less aggro stationy type of donk. Obviously we can't be sure villain is this type, but I typically go for a lot of value until I see they're decent enough to fold at 20NL.

I'm also not sure we should be giving this guy a free card to make his 2 pair, oesd or gutshot on the river. I think this board is pretty drawy in relation to a standard calling range out of the blinds (suited connectors and pairs) If it were something like 2 4 7 9 r, I like your c/b line more.

swiggidy

03-03-2009, 01:50 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

I quite like the check behind line actually, it certainly protects our stack and protects us from making a bad decision if raised.

It also prevents you getting value.

Part of checking behind turn is because we think villain is agro and will bluff river sometimes, giving us extra value (that we're giving up by checking behind).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

I do find thin value betting profitable vs the less aggro stationy type of donk. Obviously we can't be sure villain is this type, but I typically go for a lot of value until I see they're decent enough to fold at 20NL.

I don't even think this situation is thin. But in general you are right, you can bet for value a ton (is basically all your profit). TPGK is not thin, MPGK is usually thin.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

d0zer

03-03-2009, 03:21 AM

#15 (permalink)

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I don't like checking turn at all. There's still tons of draws/overpairs/pair hands that we can get value from.

FWIW, I don't absolutely hate stacking off here at the micros, especially since we don't have a great read that villain is passive. But since we have some read that he is passive -- the turn c/r leads me to believe we're behind enough to not want to commit ourselves to this pot -- which we do if we continue any further.

Hero played well imo.

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Bad turn spot with AA

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