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Bad hands by Tags/Regs

  
 
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bjsaust
Old 02-22-2009, 08:25 AM     Post subject: Bad hands by Tags/Regs #1 (permalink)  
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Bit of an experiment, but I've seen some stuff lately I think is bad by guys I'd class as TAGs/Regs on the site I play, so thought it might be useful to post them for you guys to see. We concentrate a lot on what fish do that we can take advantage of, but not playing bad ourselves is just as important (baring in mind my own play isnt perfect either in spots ). Lets see how it goes:

Hand 1

Mistake - over valuing PPs PF.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($116.75)
MP ($66.60)
CO ($50.90)
Button ($110.50)
SB ($96.74)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A
MP bets $1.75, CO calls $1.75, Button calls $1.75, SB calls $1.50, Hero raises $10, 1 fold, CO calls $8.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($26.25) 10, 2, 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

Turn: ($27.25) A (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($27.25) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2, Hero calls $2

Total pot: $31.25

Results below:
Hero didn't show K, A (nothing).
CO had 7, 7 (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: CO won $29.70

CO is 25/5 over 500 hands and a small winner over that sample.

Ok, this guy has nowhere near set odds here. He's calling $8.75 and only has $50 in his stack. Even if I stack of every single time he hits a set (i.e., he gives me a range of exactly AA/KK and expects me to stack off even if an A flops when I have KK) he doesnt have the 8:1 implied odds he needs, let alone some buffer for when I dont or when I win even if he hits a set. Thats the biggest mistake. Obviously min-bet on flop folds none of my range, especially if he only called pre because he gives me a big PP range. Then when he hits his two outer on the river he doesnt seem to even try for value. He's gotta get the max he can there.

Out of interest I dont bet turn because I see it as WA/WB, some people do that min-bet thing on flop to induce stupidity so the A isnt neccessarily gin for me.

I've almost totally cut calling 3-bets with PPs out of my game. I need a very good reason to do so.


Mistake 2

Missing value:


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($309.07)
UTG ($47.40)
MP ($52.20)
Button ($50.75)
Hero (SB) ($62.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3, 3
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, Button bets $2.25, Hero calls $2, 2 folds

Flop: ($5.50) 8, 6, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($5.50) J (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

River: ($5.50) A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Total pot: $5.50

Results:
Button had A, K (one pair, Aces).
Hero had 3, 3 (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Button won $5.25

Button is 20/14 over 1k hands and a slight loser over that sample.

I'll be honest, this really confuses me. I had taken a passive (perhaps seen as trappy) line a couple of times this session, but thats no-where near a good enough reason not to value bet TPTK on the river in a spot where I've checked 3 streets. You cant play too scared, you need to get value from medium strength hands. I can easy have something that I wont bet but will call thats worse than he's got. At the least he should try.

Calling with 33 is probably bad here. His range is very wide (24% ATS) and I fold SB a lot as does the BB so his range is probably wider. I dont want to 3-bet as he has low fold to 3-bet so it should just be folded I think.


Hand 3

Bluffing with a hand that has showdown value:


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($309.07)
SB ($50.60)
BB ($52.95)
UTG ($51)
Hero (MP) ($59.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K
1 fold, Hero bets $1.75, 1 fold, SB calls $1.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($4) 2, A, Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($4) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB raises $6, Hero calls $3

River: ($16) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $16

Results:
SB had 10, 10 (one pair, tens).
Hero had K, K (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: Hero won $15.20


SB is actually 30/10 here over smallish sample, so not really a TAG/Reg but this was a good example hand.

On the turn, its so unlikely I fold any better hands to his minraise. A hand like QK, KK, JJ might need to think hard v's a proper raise, but they're not folding to a min-raise, and probably not to a proper raise either after two checks. If I'm bluffing he should just call and let me bluff again on river, and if I'm not bluffing he's just value towning himself. Sometimes its fine to c/c with a hand that has showdown value but that rarely folds a better hand if we bet. Makes it worse here as we also rarely call with a hand thats better, only if we're on a draw but even then he gives us good odds.

I dont think I did anything too wrong here. Maybe could go with some thin value on the river, but I think he has enough FDs in his turn raise range that he's getting tricky with on river to make a check behind fine.


Feel free to discuss or post hands yourself.
Just playing to improve.
 
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ZwiFT
Old 02-22-2009, 11:05 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Please make short posts. Also, hand1 was terrible played. You gotta cbet that 100%
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TLR
Old 02-22-2009, 01:30 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Hand1: Villian played it terrribly, but I think you should have bet both flop and turn

Hand2: I think you analysis is correct, again villian played poorly


 
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hangchiong
Old 02-22-2009, 02:19 PM #4 (permalink)  
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This really look like passive Regs.

Hand 1-Same as the rest.But why do we bet here Zwift?

Hand 2-Villain was an idiot 16 tabling 50NL

Hand 3-I dont see a reason not to be the flop here.
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bjsaust
Old 02-22-2009, 08:19 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZwiFT
Please make short posts. Also, hand1 was terrible played. You gotta cbet that 100%
No. Cbetting OOP with air in 3-bet pots on bad boards is a great way to lose money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hangchiong
Hand 3-I dont see a reason not to be the flop here.
I'll bet flop most of the time. Cant remember why I didnt tbh. That said, I consider KK on an A high flop good for 2 streets of value. People get way too caught up in one of those streets being flop when it doesnt need to be.
Just playing to improve.
 
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:59 AM #6 (permalink)  
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hand 3 is double you ey double you bee
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MuddyWicket
Old 02-23-2009, 06:30 AM #7 (permalink)  
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There was a huge thread about hand three and why you dont cbet. If you havent read it I would suggest you do so. It probably was a stickie or something somewhere.
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bjsaust
Old 02-23-2009, 06:54 AM #8 (permalink)  
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That thread doesnt apply as much here. Thats KK in a 3-bet pot, in a single raised pot you're more likely to get some value from a worse hand.
Just playing to improve.
 
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:43 AM #9 (permalink)  
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we got more value by checking
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DoanDiggy
Old 02-24-2009, 07:51 AM #10 (permalink)  
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I like the check on hand 3 as well with such a dry flop. We're only going to be comfortable betting 2 streets, so we might as well wait until some kind of draw comes in on the turn so that we can get more value. Also, we sometimes get a free chance to hit our K and stack a trappy AK, AQ, or A2s.
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Parasurama
Old 02-24-2009, 11:51 AM #11 (permalink)  
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I'm pretty sure 25/5 and 30/10 do not mean TAG and probably doesn't mean winning Reg
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