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jyms
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Tilting mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,235
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99% of what you learn will not come from a HH post. Sure, at the beginning they will really help solve some major, obvious leaks. And sure as you get more involved in theory and gain experience they will help with figuring out thought processes within the hand. But your right, having someone tell you to fold to the turn bet because someone is a Tagg by stats alone is not going to take you much farther than $50NL.
It's not the answers that are the problem in most of these situations though. Some of these threads by ISF and Spoon have sparked some much more in depth questions than any HH post has ever done.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,779
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by frosst
Imho, i would think there should be a standard guideline for posting hh's, for example including more than just x/x/x. If you are playing against a tagg that never folds to c-bets, and in fact rr's alot, you would play the hand differently than a tagg that folds to c-bets 80% of the time. Telling someone that posts a hh to bet x amount could lessen EV and, in fact, teach him wrong. Asking for more info, i would think, would teach people to look for more info, and advance the learning exponentially, as well as help to understand why they are supposed to play a hand in a certain way
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There are guidelines. Unfortunately, you need to know where they're posted:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...-em-t2566.html
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"We are gods, 'tis our purpose to set aright the path
of lesser beings."
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,027
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damnit. Now I am going to have to read this thread and all of the other links on it. So much for getting any work done this afternoon.
Looking forward to some good stuff.
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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cowboyardee
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 66
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
2. This is an odd one. Playing strong hands actually makes most every other hand we play slightly less profitable. As the way we play a certain hand comes closer to the way we play a strong hand, the profitability of that certain hand tends to decrease more and more. This same process likely increases the profitability of our bluffs, but that independent of the value of the hand.
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This is a while back, so sorry bout that. But has anyone else read this little aside slipped into this thread, thought about it a while, and had a complete revelation?
Perhaps I'm blowing things out of proportion/misunderstanding/stating the obvious, but this read into shania theory and it's implications may quite literally change my mentality when playing any non-premium hand ever again.
It took me a while to realize that it is even true (and this is because the converse is surely true -- that playing weak hands in a way similar to how we play strong ones increases the profitability of our strong hands). But once i did see the truth in said statement, the implication that the theoretical basis for playing weaker hands in a similar manner to strong hands is not primarily to increase the likelihood of a fold and a takedown but to increase the value of our strong hands played in the same manner was revelatory. The implication that my expectation when playing these weaker hands in a manner similar to stronger hands should be to actively decrease the profitability of these hands further in a trade-off for overall value at a game (at least against thinking opps who are paying attention) was even more revelatory, and I am left hoping for some sort of confirmation that I am in fact reading into the above quote correctly before I go and adjust my play and expectations during a hand or a game based on this reading.
So, please, poker geniuses out there... is my thinking/read of this correct?
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spoonitnow
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BC Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Grind
Posts: 4,066
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Those two particular applications of the Shania idea that ISF noted seem to really just note how balancing ranges works, imo.
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cowboyardee
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 66
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Those two particular applications of the Shania idea that ISF noted seem to really just note how balancing ranges works, imo.
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Likely true, but remember that many of us donks don't think about weak hands in these terms while playing them.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,238
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Those two particular applications of the Shania idea that ISF noted seem to really just note how balancing ranges works, imo.
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agreed. in its simplest form, the comparison to only playing AA UTG and, then, adding 23s (to up the EV of AA), makes perfect sense.
however, applying it to YOUR ranges, and YOUR betting patterns on the flop, turn, and river, is a bit harder to do. therefore, the perplexity we call poker.
why, again, do i like this game? could it be the challange?
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,714
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cowboyardee
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
I dont think you determine ideal ranges sitting at the table cowboy, instead you work on your ranges away from the table and somewhat use the appropriate predetermined range to suit the situation.
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I'm not sure I understand. How do you work on your ranges away from the table? Maybe I'm not thinking about this correctly? |
As pgil said, all I mean is come up with ranges v's common situations. So you start with coming up with a 'default' range, which is how you play without any reads. Then maybe you give consideration to what range you'd play at a table full of TAGs, then what range you'd play v's a a table full of calling stations, and so on. These are what I call predetermined ranges. When I say somewhat use those ranges, that would be the finetuning to the actual situation, since your opps rarely fall exactly into one category, but they give you a good basis to start with rather than trying to come up with them on the fly.
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Just playing to improve.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,865
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quite a bit of what ISF is talking about is shown in the "KK on A high flop"thread by gabe. I am sure you have all read it by now. There is this light bulb that goes on when you realize what he is talking about and then the concept no longer applies to just KK on A high flops. You can memorise what to do with KK there, but what about QQ on a k high flop or KK on an A turn? What about JTs when you flop the nuts? They alls tart to become more obvious when you understand the concept behind checking the flop. You start to know what to do when your WB/WA. There is 169 hands in poker and a million flops and turn cards that can come after. You can't memorize moves based on the cards, the board and the 1000's of opponents stats you will encounter, you need to learn the concepts that allow you to dissolve the information and situations into obvious lines to take because of the opponents range, how it is effected by the board, previous actions and the money behind. It's a jigsaw puzzle, and you need to solve it, but once you do, the light bulb goes on, and you will know you have figured it out.
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uhoh........sounds like you just might be getting it 
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spoonitnow
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BC Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Grind
Posts: 4,066
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quite a bit of what ISF is talking about is shown in the "KK on A high flop"thread by gabe. I am sure you have all read it by now. There is this light bulb that goes on when you realize what he is talking about and then the concept no longer applies to just KK on A high flops. You can memorise what to do with KK there, but what about QQ on a k high flop or KK on an A turn? What about JTs when you flop the nuts? They alls tart to become more obvious when you understand the concept behind checking the flop. You start to know what to do when your WB/WA. There is 169 hands in poker and a million flops and turn cards that can come after. You can't memorize moves based on the cards, the board and the 1000's of opponents stats you will encounter, you need to learn the concepts that allow you to dissolve the information and situations into obvious lines to take because of the opponents range, how it is effected by the board, previous actions and the money behind. It's a jigsaw puzzle, and you need to solve it, but once you do, the light bulb goes on, and you will know you have figured it out.
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uhoh........sounds like you just might be getting it in the ass from 2nl fish |
Sorry Jyms, I had to.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,226
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quite a bit of what ISF is talking about is shown in the "KK on A high flop"thread by gabe. I am sure you have all read it by now. There is this light bulb that goes on when you realize what he is talking about and then the concept no longer applies to just KK on A high flops. You can memorise what to do with KK there, but what about QQ on a k high flop or KK on an A turn? What about JTs when you flop the nuts? They alls tart to become more obvious when you understand the concept behind checking the flop. You start to know what to do when your WB/WA. There is 169 hands in poker and a million flops and turn cards that can come after. You can't memorize moves based on the cards, the board and the 1000's of opponents stats you will encounter, you need to learn the concepts that allow you to dissolve the information and situations into obvious lines to take because of the opponents range, how it is effected by the board, previous actions and the money behind. It's a jigsaw puzzle, and you need to solve it, but once you do, the light bulb goes on, and you will know you have figured it out.
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uhoh........sounds like you just might be getting it in the ass from 2nl fish |
Sorry Jyms, I had to. |
and why did you have to do this? This just isn't funny nor is very appropriate especially in the beginners forum
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spoonitnow
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BC Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Grind
Posts: 4,066
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quite a bit of what ISF is talking about is shown in the "KK on A high flop"thread by gabe. I am sure you have all read it by now. There is this light bulb that goes on when you realize what he is talking about and then the concept no longer applies to just KK on A high flops. You can memorise what to do with KK there, but what about QQ on a k high flop or KK on an A turn? What about JTs when you flop the nuts? They alls tart to become more obvious when you understand the concept behind checking the flop. You start to know what to do when your WB/WA. There is 169 hands in poker and a million flops and turn cards that can come after. You can't memorize moves based on the cards, the board and the 1000's of opponents stats you will encounter, you need to learn the concepts that allow you to dissolve the information and situations into obvious lines to take because of the opponents range, how it is effected by the board, previous actions and the money behind. It's a jigsaw puzzle, and you need to solve it, but once you do, the light bulb goes on, and you will know you have figured it out.
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uhoh........sounds like you just might be getting it in the ass from 2nl fish |
Sorry Jyms, I had to. |
and why did you have to do this? This just isn't funny nor is very appropriate especially in the beginners forum |
It's one of those inside-type jokes.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,792
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quite a bit of what ISF is talking about is shown in the "KK on A high flop"thread by gabe. I am sure you have all read it by now. There is this light bulb that goes on when you realize what he is talking about and then the concept no longer applies to just KK on A high flops. You can memorise what to do with KK there, but what about QQ on a k high flop or KK on an A turn? What about JTs when you flop the nuts? They alls tart to become more obvious when you understand the concept behind checking the flop. You start to know what to do when your WB/WA. There is 169 hands in poker and a million flops and turn cards that can come after. You can't memorize moves based on the cards, the board and the 1000's of opponents stats you will encounter, you need to learn the concepts that allow you to dissolve the information and situations into obvious lines to take because of the opponents range, how it is effected by the board, previous actions and the money behind. It's a jigsaw puzzle, and you need to solve it, but once you do, the light bulb goes on, and you will know you have figured it out.
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I have hope for the world!
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: working on midpairs
Posts: 1,282
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
dont get me wrong, i was not saying that memorizing was better. i was saying that some people, naturally being the operative word, learn that way.
and, retraining the brain, no matter how necessary, is difficult to impossible...depending on the person.
i understand you are trying to lead a horse to water, but sometimes you are dealing with jackasses. thats all i meant.
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I have the ignorant hope that everyone has the potential. |
i don't think people are naturally geared towards memorization either. i think some people are lazy. playing poker at a level comparable to ISF and other successful posters at FTR is just an amazing way to make a lot of money. even if you don't need the money now, you probably will later so get motivated to acquire wealth! ANYONE CAN DO IT!
(i'm feeling motivated from writing this)
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the driver's seat pursuing glory!
Posts: 2,430
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just wanted to say
ISF, thanks
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