Backdoor Flush - Angry Villain

**The Bean Counter** · 04-30-2012 07:28 PM

Hi all. One thing I've been thinking about lately is backdoor flush draws with 2 overs and would be grateful for comments on my thought process on the flop only (the turn call is fine as villain effectively turns his hand upside down but I clearly messed up on the river). Villain has only played a couple of orbits and seems fairly tight and straightforward and was pretty mad after this one.

Flop: The flat call pre seems odd in ep - without reads I'm assuming small/medium pocket pair most probable. Probably should c-bet, but difficult to make a pocket pair fold and probable float from strong aces. Villain's bet makes me think a pocket pair but possible bluff with overs into weakness. It's at this point I figure there are 15 cards that could improve my hand on the turn as long as villain hasn't flopped an unlikely joint and I can bluff an ace also, meaning I have odds to call. I could also bluff the river if villain checks turn behind. Or is this just pure spew?

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Poker Stars)
$10.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $5.00 USD )
Seat 2: Player2 ( $14.95 USD )
Seat 3: Player3 ( $12.11 USD )
Seat 4: Player4 ( $17.42 USD )
Seat 5: Player5 ( $9.61 USD )
Seat 6: Player6 ( $3.85 USD )
Seat 8: Hero ( $10.15 USD )
Seat 9: Player9 ( $11.06 USD )
Player4 posts small blind [$0.05 USD].
Player5 posts big blind [$0.10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Qd Kd ]
Player6 folds
Hero raises [$0.30 USD]
Player9 calls [$0.30 USD]
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
Player5 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7h, 7s, 8d ]
Hero checks
Player9 bets [$0.36 USD]
Hero calls [$0.36 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
Hero checks
Player9 bets [$0.40 USD]
Hero calls [$0.40 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
Hero checks
Player9 checks
Hero shows [Qd, Kd ]
Hero wins $2.17 USD from main pot
Player9 doesn't show [9d, 9c ]

**d0zer** · 04-30-2012 07:34 PM

just fire flop & turn. Playing this passively on the flop is a disaster, there's very little worse that villain will be betting. We need FE to make this +EV.

**kickass** · 04-30-2012 08:10 PM

$0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($3.85)
Hero (UTG+1) ($10.15)
MP1 ($11.06)
MP2 ($5)
CO ($14.95)
BTN ($12.11)
SB ($17.42)
BB ($9.61)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 8 players) Hero is UTG+1

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, MP1 calls $0.30, 5 folds

Flop:

($0.75, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.36, Hero calls $0.36

Turn:

($1.47, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

River:

($2.27, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks

Final Pot: $2.27
Hero shows

MP1 shows

Hero wins $2.17 (net +$1.11)

MP1 lost $1.06

**OngBonga** · 04-30-2012 08:16 PM

Checking this river is the worst thing you can do, I mean how the fuck are you supposed to bluff this river if villain knows you check flush? Taking this line with overs + backdoor is better if you plan to bluff turn or river, which means you absolutely must bet river, whether you make a hand or not.

Not that this is a good floating spot, we raised pre so we should cbet this. I''d be taking a b/f b/f b/f line here.

**daven** · 04-30-2012 08:43 PM

bet flop
bet river as played

**Icanhastreebet** · 05-01-2012 01:15 AM

just cbet, c/c is not going to show a profit
river iunno it depends v the average 10nler though it's a clear bet I guess(are ppl rly checking 99 here all the time?)

**Fnord** · 05-01-2012 04:54 AM

+1 check/calling the flop is doing some pretty bad things for you:

It's defining your hand as one you're not going to bet or want raised on the flop. So unless some other weird dynamic is going on, a simple read of your hand can heavily discount the top of your range.

It doesn't give your opponent a chance to fold weak hands.

Unless you think he's going to bet a very large % of the time when checked to, you're setting yourself up to in put money against his best hands when you're only drawing two 2 over-cards that may or may not be good.

The river check is just plain failure to think through your hand reading (note the information leakage with his turn bet sizing.) Because if you think a lot of his range is pairs, he's either not going to see value in betting the river or chicken out on making a thinish value bet with hands like TT or 99 or 66. If he has 55, then good for him.

**The Bean Counter** · 05-01-2012 07:29 PM

Thanks for the feedback all. I'd normally b/f flop and turn but have been trying out some weird lines against some of the nitty 10nl regs on Stars lately with some success (whilst it's cheap - admittedly, this is not one that went well or worked). There's a lot of players at 10nl on Stars however that can't lay down a medium overpair on 2/3 streets to a bluff and flat call all the way, which has cost me a fair bit lately.

Just to get back to my original thinking: if I was in position and facing a c-bet on this flop, would you be more likely to float with a backdoor flush draw with the 15 or 18 cards that I mentioned originally?

04-30-2012 07:28 PM #1
The Bean Counter View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2011 Posts 338	Backdoor Flush - Angry Villain Hi all. One thing I've been thinking about lately is backdoor flush draws with 2 overs and would be grateful for comments on my thought process on the flop only (the turn call is fine as villain effectively turns his hand upside down but I clearly messed up on the river). Villain has only played a couple of orbits and seems fairly tight and straightforward and was pretty mad after this one. Flop: The flat call pre seems odd in ep - without reads I'm assuming small/medium pocket pair most probable. Probably should c-bet, but difficult to make a pocket pair fold and probable float from strong aces. Villain's bet makes me think a pocket pair but possible bluff with overs into weakness. It's at this point I figure there are 15 cards that could improve my hand on the turn as long as villain hasn't flopped an unlikely joint and I can bluff an ace also, meaning I have odds to call. I could also bluff the river if villain checks turn behind. Or is this just pure spew? *** Hand History for Game 1111111111 * (Poker Stars) $10.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em Seat 3 is the button Seat 1: Player1 ( $5.00 USD ) Seat 2: Player2 ( $14.95 USD ) Seat 3: Player3 ( $12.11 USD ) Seat 4: Player4 ( $17.42 USD ) Seat 5: Player5 ( $9.61 USD ) Seat 6: Player6 ( $3.85 USD ) Seat 8: Hero ( $10.15 USD ) Seat 9: Player9 ( $11.06 USD ) Player4 posts small blind [$0.05 USD]. Player5 posts big blind [$0.10 USD]. Dealing down cards Dealt to Hero [ Qd Kd ] Player6 folds Hero raises [$0.30 USD] Player9 calls [$0.30 USD] Player1 folds Player2 folds Player3 folds Player4 folds Player5 folds Dealing Flop [ 7h, 7s, 8d ] Hero checks Player9 bets [$0.36 USD] Hero calls [$0.36 USD] Dealing Turn [ 3d ] Hero checks Player9 bets [$0.40 USD] Hero calls [$0.40 USD] Dealing River ** [ 5d ] Hero checks Player9 checks Hero shows [Qd, Kd ] Hero wins $2.17 USD from main pot Player9 doesn't show [9d, 9c ]

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04-30-2012 07:34 PM #2
d0zer View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2007 Posts 4,230	just fire flop & turn. Playing this passively on the flop is a disaster, there's very little worse that villain will be betting. We need FE to make this +EV.

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04-30-2012 08:10 PM #3
kickass View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Nov 2010 Posts 889 Location St. Shawshanks Infant School	$0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem PokerStars 8 Players Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($3.85) Hero (UTG+1) ($10.15) MP1 ($11.06) MP2 ($5) CO ($14.95) BTN ($12.11) SB ($17.42) BB ($9.61) Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 8 players) Hero is UTG+1 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, MP1 calls $0.30, 5 folds Flop: ($0.75, 2 players) Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.36, Hero calls $0.36 Turn: ($1.47, 2 players) Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40 River: ($2.27, 2 players) Hero checks, MP1 checks Final Pot: $2.27 Hero shows MP1 shows Hero wins $2.17 (net +$1.11) MP1 lost $1.06
	Take it easy? Thanks, the eagles!
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04-30-2012 08:16 PM #4
OngBonga View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2010 Posts 5,312 Location England	Checking this river is the worst thing you can do, I mean how the fuck are you supposed to bluff this river if villain knows you check flush? Taking this line with overs + backdoor is better if you plan to bluff turn or river, which means you absolutely must bet river, whether you make a hand or not. Not that this is a good floating spot, we raised pre so we should cbet this. I''d be taking a b/f b/f b/f line here.
	Originally Posted by wufwugy ongies gonna ong
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04-30-2012 08:43 PM #5
daven View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message trolling freetrollers Join Date Aug 2007 Posts 7,103 Location soaking up ethanol, moving on up	bet flop bet river as played
	don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit allin, reload, repeat please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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05-01-2012 01:15 AM #6
Icanhastreebet View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2009 Posts 1,410 Location IRC, Come join me!	just cbet, c/c is not going to show a profit river iunno it depends v the average 10nler though it's a clear bet I guess(are ppl rly checking 99 here all the time?)

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05-01-2012 04:54 AM #7
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,380 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	+1 check/calling the flop is doing some pretty bad things for you: It's defining your hand as one you're not going to bet or want raised on the flop. So unless some other weird dynamic is going on, a simple read of your hand can heavily discount the top of your range. It doesn't give your opponent a chance to fold weak hands. Unless you think he's going to bet a very large % of the time when checked to, you're setting yourself up to in put money against his best hands when you're only drawing two 2 over-cards that may or may not be good. The river check is just plain failure to think through your hand reading (note the information leakage with his turn bet sizing.) Because if you think a lot of his range is pairs, he's either not going to see value in betting the river or chicken out on making a thinish value bet with hands like TT or 99 or 66. If he has 55, then good for him.
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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05-01-2012 07:29 PM #8
The Bean Counter View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2011 Posts 338	Thanks for the feedback all. I'd normally b/f flop and turn but have been trying out some weird lines against some of the nitty 10nl regs on Stars lately with some success (whilst it's cheap - admittedly, this is not one that went well or worked). There's a lot of players at 10nl on Stars however that can't lay down a medium overpair on 2/3 streets to a bluff and flat call all the way, which has cost me a fair bit lately. Just to get back to my original thinking: if I was in position and facing a c-bet on this flop, would you be more likely to float with a backdoor flush draw with the 15 or 18 cards that I mentioned originally?

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