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mbiz
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08-03-2009, 09:25 AM
Post subject: asking for a fundamental thought process to postflop play
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Orstraya
Posts: 178
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So i just posted a hand in irc and it was desrvingly ripped apart.
The thing is, in having it explained it was very obviously a poor line by me (even though i won the hand).
And i think it could have been avoided if i hadve considered things like "what worse hands might he have (given preflop play), what would he do with such hands, what do i want him to do with such hands" and the same for with better hands.
Is there a set of such considerations for postflop play that anyone might be able to point me at or let me know of? im talking the real basics of thinking poker - im a noob after all, so dont get too complex..i mean its stuff i gotta think of in the heat of the moment.
I'd be fucking grateful for any help in this department, thanks guys
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It's called "REM"
first you put someone on a Range of hands
then you calculate your Equity vs. that range of hands
then you take the line that Maximizes your expectation against that range
pokerstove can give you the equity, so that part is easy, but putting them on a correct range takes practice
and to find the line that maximizes our expectation is the hardest part because we have to decide whether any line gives us a positive expectation (if not, we have to fold)
and even if we think that we have a positive expectation in the hand we have to choose between calling and raising
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Stay in IRC and keep posting hands and it will start coming together for you.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Stay in IRC and keep posting hands and it will start coming together for you.
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^^^
just working through the HH's with more experienced FTR guys is probably best/easiest
What I did was to "play" against a typical opponent, say I pick up AK in MP and get flatted by the button. I worked out ranges and experimented with different lines, with missing/hitting the flop, different stack sizes, wet vs. dry flops, different turn scenarios, etc. Then worked on it against villains who were looser, more agro/passive, and - after all that work - did it over again when in position.
Less than an hours' work generally will get you familiar with the relevant lines and adjustments. The most difficult part is to make up the ranges you'll face, but if you've never done it explicitly listing every combo in someone's range (with some either/or alternates at the bottom end to make it flexible), it's something will help your thinking a lot at the tables.
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
It's called "REM"
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ez to remember as it's name after an excellent band imo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_XFMCgeI7c
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dontezuma
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Straight
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Catchin' fishes
Posts: 116
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
What I did was to "play" against a typical opponent, say I pick up AK in MP and get flatted by the button. I worked out ranges and experimented with different lines, with missing/hitting the flop, different stack sizes, wet vs. dry flops, different turn scenarios, etc. Then worked on it against villains who were looser, more agro/passive, and - after all that work - did it over again when in position.
Less than an hours' work generally will get you familiar with the relevant lines and adjustments. The most difficult part is to make up the ranges you'll face, but if you've never done it explicitly listing every combo in someone's range (with some either/or alternates at the bottom end to make it flexible), it's something will help your thinking a lot at the tables.
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Robb, can you elaborate on this? How did you "play" against a typical opp with AK OOP for an hour and work on lines with different flops... stack sizes... etc.?
I'm all about learning a new way to "practice" poker. I run ICM quizzes a fair amount to help my SNGs, and I'm working on putting more cash game play into my repertoire, because rakeback deals on small sites require cash-game play, and it's soooo fishy.
Anyway, I'm working on those cash skills and would love to learn how you work out and test those various lines...
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mbiz
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Orstraya
Posts: 178
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thanks all. i will mos def be posting HH's in irc until god knows when.
ok robb yeah i havent really done much on figuring ranges, since it seems complex and uni keeps occupying my brain but ill definately get started on it
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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These excellent articles by ISF were a great deal of help to me...
Forming Ranges Part 1
Forming Ranges Part 2
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Sir Pawnalot
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
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[quote="iopq"]It's called "REM"
first you put someone on a Range of hands
then you calculate your Equity vs. that range of hands
then you take the line that Maximizes your expectation against that range
Fold Equity is even more important than Equity in post flop situations. This is easily proved by tracking how many hands go to showdown. The fewer hands that go to showdown, the more important FE is in comparison with E.
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A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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[quote="Sir Pawnalot"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
It's called "REM"
first you put someone on a Range of hands
then you calculate your Equity vs. that range of hands
then you take the line that Maximizes your expectation against that range
Fold Equity is even more important than Equity in post flop situations. This is easily proved by tracking how many hands go to showdown. The fewer hands that go to showdown, the more important FE is in comparison with E.
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is there anyway you can elaborate on this, i know the pros don't like to spoon feed us, but i feel like grasping this is pivotal to improvement. I am still having trouble with the whole FE thing
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