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AQ flops trips and preflop raiser goes nuts

  
 
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ARK
Old 02-10-2010, 06:20 PM     Post subject: AQ flops trips and preflop raiser goes nuts #1 (permalink)  
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No stats, I travel for work and am playing on a work laptop. Villain seemed a tad more aggressive in preflop 3 betting than is normal for 25NL but it could have just been a run of hands as we hadn't played together long and I hadn't seen him do anything out of line.

The size of the turn (and subsequent river bet) surprised me. It seemed like 88, JJ, AJ maybe AK but I could have been suffering from Monsters-under-the-bed syndrome as it had been a terrible session for me so far.

Comments on all streets appreciated.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) -

saw flop

CO ($72.05)
Button ($42.95)
Hero (SB) ($29.10)
BB ($25)
UTG ($25.05)
UTG+1 ($30.80)
MP1 ($25.20)
MP2 ($25.50)
MP3 ($25.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, Q
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.75, 5 folds, Hero calls $0.65, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.75) A, 8, A (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.75) J (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $5, Hero calls $5

River: ($13.75) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $24.05 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $13.75 | Rake: $0.65
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celtic123
Old 02-10-2010, 07:01 PM     Post subject: Re: AQ flops trips and preflop raiser goes nuts #2 (permalink)  
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 Pre:

Flat call Fine

Flop

I Think you should have gone for a check raise. This cuts out uncertainty in later streets.
You want to be taking the pot down now. IF he has 8's fair enough.

As for his oversie bets. I dont know.
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eragotte
Old 02-10-2010, 07:20 PM #3 (permalink)  
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id just bet out the flop... c/r seems gay since he wont continue with worse where as if you bet he can easily call with like kk-99 and then u can get tricky and check the turn or something
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ARK
Old 02-10-2010, 08:11 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eragotte
id just bet out the flop... c/r seems gay since he wont continue with worse where as if you bet he can easily call with like kk-99 and then u can get tricky and check the turn or something
Greedily, I thought if I check called the flop I could get 2 streets of value out of KK-99, which seemed less likely if I bet out.

What's our plan if we lead out and get raised? Go into call-down mode I'd assume, unless betting gets big like it did here?
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bigspenda73
Old 02-10-2010, 08:16 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 PF is a fold, otherwise postflop looks fine
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eragotte
Old 02-10-2010, 08:25 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
PF is a fold, otherwise postflop looks fine
why call turn, river makes your hand slightly stronger since FD missed and wtf do you think he is gonna do after betting 5 into 3.75 on the turn?

Quote:
Greedily, I thought if I check called the flop I could get 2 streets of value out of KK-99, which seemed less likely if I bet out.

What's our plan if we lead out and get raised? Go into call-down mode I'd assume, unless betting gets big like it did here?
i would think kk-99 bets flop, checks turn, bets river if they think they have value? thats why i said bet flop, check turn to look weaker? i dunno... i dont like your line, it seems like when u call 5 on the turn you are expecting to fold the river so why call 5?
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ARK
Old 02-10-2010, 08:37 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eragotte
i would think kk-99 bets flop, checks turn, bets river if they think they have value? thats why i said bet flop, check turn to look weaker? i dunno... i dont like your line, it seems like when u call 5 on the turn you are expecting to fold the river so why call 5?
I certainly wasn't expecting another overbet on the river. Are you advocating a turn check-raise with your line?

Part of me feels like I got blown out of the pot by KQ clubs. I had wanted to call but with the session I was having (lost 4 100+BB pots all-in as more than a 60% fav, ran into quads 3x, etc) I just couldn't take another cooler. In fact, I had to walk away after this hand, something I rarely do.
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bigspenda73
Old 02-10-2010, 08:39 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eragotte
Quote:
PF is a fold, otherwise postflop looks fine
why call turn, river makes your hand slightly stronger since FD missed and wtf do you think he is gonna do after betting 5 into 3.75 on the turn?
it's really hard for UTG+1 at 25nl FR to have a FD when the Ac is on the board
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eragotte
Old 02-10-2010, 08:54 PM #9 (permalink)  
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^ not nearly enough of his range to call the river, same goes for the turn though does it not?

Quote:
I certainly wasn't expecting another overbet on the river. Are you advocating a turn check-raise with your line?
no, Im saying if hes betting 5 into 3.75 on the turn you have to know he is dam serious about wanting this hand and he isnt going to be checking the river, the shove is fairly expected in my mind.

Now use your reads, is he a spazzy donk that could be raising A10 utg? probably not. Is he stupid enough to bet KK this big on the turn only letting better hands to call? probably not. Or is he on such a high level that he thinks he can get you off Ax and turned his flop made hand into a bluff? Probably not.

All signs point to his range being AJ/AQ/AK/JJ/88, why call turn?
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Erpel
Old 02-10-2010, 09:47 PM #10 (permalink)  
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He's not betting to stack off on the flop and his plan very transparently changes on the turn. By the river shove I am putting him on AJ/JJ pretty much only. I think the argument for calling turn is that it's just too exploitable to fold trips at that point, but I think an exploitable argument only really works if our opponents are observant enough to actually exploit.

I think we can ignore how exploitable we are and just consider if the turn bet is enough info to put him on AJ/JJ (or 88/AK/AQ if we consider those likely). As spenda says there's not much chance of him being on a flush draw. Then making our commitment decision on the turn I guess a fold should be possible. Just seems... horribly weak tight.

But I agree with eragotte. Most players don't overbet unless they are either committed and panicking to get all the money or if they are just idiots.
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acoss3006
Old 02-10-2010, 10:26 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Yah i fold preflop here without too much thought/a read that villian will raise in EP with worse. I think you played fine postflop. River is an easy fold. Put it this way, there are two aces on the board and your not folding to his aggression, but villian is still overbetting into you.

I think there is a legitimate argument for folding the turn. It is super likely that villian will bet the river and, given this aggression, we will probably only be calling if the last ace or one of the three queens shows up (effectively drawing to 4 outs).

This hand just goes to show how awkward even top trips can be when we flat from the blinds and have to play OOP with what could very well be a dominated hand.
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cleanup.that
Old 02-10-2010, 11:03 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Yeah you can fold pre no problem. As played, you've under repped your hand so much that I think you just need to walk him down.
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