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drtofu66
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05-22-2006, 01:04 PM
Post subject: AOK's 19 hands and 25NL Boss Media AK hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 595
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So, I tried some 25NL Boss this weekend since the 10NL tables had waiting lists 10+ deep and the table stats were good for a tight 19 handed game.
The CO has ~$34, I have ~$24. No reads as I just sat down this orbit.
I get dealt AKo on the button.
3 limpers, so I raise to $1.75. All fold to the CO who calls.
Flop is AKT rainbow.
CO leads for a $4.37 pot sized bet. Hmm, what happened to the Boss media softness?? 
How do you proceed? I minraised to $8.74 total (bad, I know. But that's probably what I'd have done had I flopped a set. I plan to fold if he pushes over the top as he probably has QJ then). CO calls (KT? AT? Q/JT?).
Turn is a T. CO checks.
Do you push? Check behind? Provided you don't hit your 4 outer on the river, do you fold to a river push?
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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What are you putting him on and why?
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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flyingPenguin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 193
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AT, KT and QJ all have you beat here, so I'd be trying to keep the pot small. Without reads I would be folding to any push, and I wouldn't push myself. I'd check behind and call a reasonable bet on the river (or value bet if he checks), but fold to a push.
With no reads except for a loose table, I think Ax, KQ or some other shit is more likely, and if you bet half pot he'd probably fold, but if he doesn't you don't have much stack left and you're probably all in with a losing hand.
I'm not too good in these large pot, medium hand situations though. A read is pretty important here.
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yorib
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 281
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Short answer: Check / Check and call up to a 1/3-1/2 pot bet. While you may be ahead, if you push and he calls you are beat every time. If he flopped the straight, he'd have pushed your reraise. My thought is he tried to by the pot on a scary flop, decided not to look like a wimp and called your reraise, now wants to see the hand cheaply. It's plasibly he has JT/T9/KQ something like that. Regardless, the worst thing you can do is push, because he'll call only if you are beat.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by flyingPenguin
AT, KT and QJ all have you beat here, so I'd be trying to keep the pot small. Without reads I would be folding to any push, and I wouldn't push myself. I'd check behind and call a reasonable bet on the river (or value bet if he checks), but fold to a push.
With no reads except for a loose table, I think Ax, KQ or some other shit is more likely, and if you bet half pot he'd probably fold, but if he doesn't you don't have much stack left and you're probably all in with a losing hand.
I'm not too good in these large pot, medium hand situations though. A read is pretty important here.
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Absolutely. It's either a small pot for you or a large one for him.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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drtofu66
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 595
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Good, thanks for the replies. How bad was minraising here? I know minraising is not a great play, but I didn't want to bloat the pot more than I needed to and I needed to raise to get some idea of where he was. The turn blew my plan up in my face, but eh-- that's poker. After the minbet I had $15 left. If I raised more I don't have much stack left so I don't see any advantage to raising more, except against a bluff (and I have no read). I thought about pushing the flop (how bad would that have been?), but that let him get away too cheap if he had crap.
I checked behind and he pushed all in on a brick river card. I figured he had at least trip T if not a straight or FH. I folded and he showed KJo. I made a note of this guy but I think this was the one time he was going to get out of line in the session. He tightened up considerably the rest of the time he was there and didn't play too many hands.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Min raising begins to committ you against only a range that beats you, so min raising was horrible. In essence, what happened is a make board popped, and you kept playing pair poker.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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drtofu66
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 595
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Min raising begins to committ you against only a range that beats you, so min raising was horrible. In essence, what happened is a make board popped, and you kept playing pair poker.
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I'm completely baffled as to what to do with this hand, then.
A raise to $13 really does commit me as I'd only have $10 or so left, so it seems like a push would have been better than a 3x raise. Was that the better move? Even against the QJ (or TT, I suppose) that I'm behind, I have 2 streets to catch one of 4 outs. And if a Q, J, or T were to fall, I'm in some deeper shit. Or do you just call and reevaluate on the turn and get off a little cheaper, but opening yourself up to bluff?
So let's back up, since my troubles on this hand started with the flop-- what do you do on the flop? It seems that we're down to an AI flop push, call, or fold (does anyone really find a fold here?).
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Don't ever minraise.
Raise the flop to at least 12 or 15. A push isn't bad.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Last night I had AA on a KQJ flop. I folded rather quickly to my opponents KJ on a big turn bet.
He bet full pot into me on the flop, and then fired a second pot bet on the turn. I found myself uncommitted, and behind so I folded. The moral of the story is it's sometimes correct to act passively to see where you're at instead of aggressively to see where you're at and then realize you're stuck there.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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push the flop or jack it up big so it commits you to go all the way. All this keep the pot small and check/call all the way (how you check/call from in position I don't know, but I'll ignore that) is just bad advice.
by the way, AK beats KT and AT on a AKT board.
Quote:
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CO leads for a $4.37 pot sized bet. Hmm, what happened to the Boss media softness??
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Quote:
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I folded and he showed KJo.
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flyingPenguin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 193
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
push the flop or jack it up big so it commits you to go all the way. All this keep the pot small and check/call all the way (how you check/call from in position I don't know, but I'll ignore that) is just bad advice.
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At the flop that's probably good because he's most likely ahead. But he got himself into a bad situation with the minraise on the flop and bad turn card. Granted it's not a situation to put yourself into, but do you still think a push is good on the turn here?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
by the way, AK beats KT and AT on a AKT board.
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But not on an AKTT board, which is what it was at the turn.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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push
the flop
if he has you beat meh, i bet he doesnt more often than not and calls more often than not when hes way behind.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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It's never a bad thing to exercise caution on a 3 broadway flop against typical raised pot ranges when you hold one or two pair.
Of course the JQK and TJQ flops present OESD, so you just have to find out if your opponents drawing and make them pay.
Automatically pushing heavy chips in because your hand is pretty good isn't poker. Put your opponent on a hand and play accordingly. Use your equity. Fold if you have none and you're beat. Flopping a good hand isn't a license to let your mind rest. Just my 3 cents.
Are you ever folding to QJ on an AKT flop when you hold AK? Not often, but sure you are once in a while. The better your hand, the more sure you have to be that they hold exactly that. It is possible to narrow a range that far and deduce a -EV destacking.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
It's never a bad thing to exercise caution on a 3 broadway flop against typical raised pot ranges when you hold one or two pair.
Of course the JQK and TJQ flops present OESD, so you just have to find out if your opponents drawing and make them pay.
Automatically pushing heavy chips in because your hand is pretty good isn't poker. Put your opponent on a hand and play accordingly. Use your equity. Fold if you have none and you're beat. Flopping a good hand isn't a license to let your mind rest. Just my 3 cents.
Are you ever folding to QJ on an AKT flop when you hold AK? Not often, but sure you are once in a while. The better your hand, the more sure you have to be that they hold exactly that. It is possible to narrow a range that far and deduce a -EV destacking.
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Amen.
I don't think the min raise was a bad idea. I read the "never min raise" thing. The min raise here is a great way to get information as cheaply as you're going to get it in this hand. At this point you have to find out if you are dominated. The min. raise gives you a 50/50 chance to find out. If he pushes or reraises then he flopped the straight (or a set, but prob. the straight). You let it go right there. Since he called you have to go Hmmm and wonder how clever this guy is. He has 34 bucks on a 25 table so he knows how to win some chips (or he just got lucky).
If a T didn't come on the turn I would bet into him, but since it did, you have to check. One of 2 things is going to happen here. Either he has you dominated and he's going to make a value bet on the river, or he doesn't and he's going to check. If he's not trapping here, then he has think that you might be. He could have flopped 2 pair also, and how he has a full house. Anyway you check it down and call a reasonable bet. If you have him beat then a bet will just make him fold (so you get nothing). If he has you dominated then it just draws a raise (probably a min raise) that "have" to call based on pot odds (although it's the worse choice available).
I think he's scared of the straight now that you min raised him. I'm concerned about the t on the turn. You're 2 pair is very very vulnerable at this point. If he has a T you're beat. If he called with JQ, you're beat. Mabe he has a bare Q or J and was just testing you on the flop. He won't commit any more since you min raised him. I would take any lead bet seriously but pay him a small value bet on the river. Otherwise it's check down and he can absolutely steal this pot with any other bet over about 1/2 the pot. You call 1/2 and down and get ready to reload.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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The reason I said never min raise is because it rarely "finds out where you are at" as you said. Its such a weak raise that it won't often define anyone's hand.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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I don't think the min raise was a bad idea. I read the "never min raise" thing. The min raise here is a great way to get information as cheaply as you're going to get it in this hand. At this point you have to find out if you are dominated. The min. raise gives you a 50/50 chance to find out. If he pushes or reraises then he flopped the straight (or a set, but prob. the straight). You let it go right there. Since he called you have to go Hmmm and wonder how clever this guy is. He has 34 bucks on a 25 table so he knows how to win some chips (or he just got lucky).
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wow
do you really believe that a push here is always exactly TT/QJ?
You know the answer to that is no.
FWIW, I'm not in the 'absolutely never minraise it's always a terrible play' crowd. On the other hand, it's not a common play that I use, although it's in my bagotrix when the time is right.
I think a min-raise on THIS flop in THIS situation is awful, though.
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D
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 6
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My first thought is why the pot bet OOP.
Seems unlikely he called with QJ, and if he did, why make a pot bet OOP on that board having called your PFR. Seems unlikely he has a set (AA KK TT with no PFR?). Looks to me like he has hit a pair / 2pair and wants to work out where hes at in the pot or push out QQ / JJ etc.
3-betting puts a decent amount of your stack into the pot, but will hopefully win the pot, or put him on a better hand if he calls / raises.
Mini-raise hurts you for all the reasons it usually does. It is not intimidating enough to make him fold, and gets you into a sticky situation on the turn.
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