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Anyone else starting to play passive preflop?

  
 
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Laeelin
Old 09-04-2005, 06:15 AM     Post subject: Anyone else starting to play passive preflop? #1 (permalink)  
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I've mostly stopped raising preflop.

Basically only raising with AA/KK/QQ.

I've even dropped AK from my FPR list.

Basically, with really fishy tables, they will not fold to a continuation bet anyway when you miss often enough making the PFR a lot less useful.

I do better outplaying them after the flop anyway.

Thoughts?

Q. Is poker Gambling?
A. Do you use correct bankroll management?
 
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The_Bankroll
Old 09-04-2005, 08:31 AM #2 (permalink)  
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at really loose $25NL tables, I like doing this too. for several reasons:

1.if you raise, you're gonna get 6 callers anyway, you're not narrowing the field
2.If you limp with AK and spike an ace, you'll get enough action from all the Axs that limped in to make up for it
3. If you limp with something like JJ, if you get an overpair, people think their top pair of nines is good

It really depends on the table, but I think this can be a profitible strategy
 
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The_Cheat
Old 09-04-2005, 11:22 AM     Post subject: Re: Anyone else starting to play passive preflop? #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laeelin
I've mostly stopped raising preflop.

Basically only raising with AA/KK/QQ.

I've even dropped AK from my FPR list.

Basically, with really fishy tables, they will not fold to a continuation bet anyway when you miss often enough making the PFR a lot less useful.

I do better outplaying them after the flop anyway.

Thoughts?
rofl... i limped in once...
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gabe
Old 09-04-2005, 05:53 PM #4 (permalink)  
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a500lbgorilla
Old 09-04-2005, 06:54 PM #5 (permalink)  
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If you feel like never getting any action, then absolutely play passive preflop.

-'rilla

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You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Dassin
Old 09-04-2005, 07:44 PM #6 (permalink)  

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Yeah, no reason to get your money in when you get the best of it, that's what the suckers do!
 
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Laeelin
Old 09-04-2005, 07:49 PM #7 (permalink)  
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So, what do ya'll recomend doing when a 5xbb raise gets 5 callers and only 1-2 folds to a continuation bet?

Personally, I've been cutting back on raising preflop, and dropping the hammer on 2 pair or better they call away... Huge wins, small losses... the other way I tend to hit huge wins, medium losses.

Q. Is poker Gambling?
A. Do you use correct bankroll management?
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 09-04-2005, 07:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laeelin
So, what do ya'll recomend doing when a 5xbb raise gets 5 callers and only 1-2 folds to a continuation bet?
rake in the cash.


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
 
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gabe
Old 09-04-2005, 08:00 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laeelin
So, what do ya'll recomend doing when a 5xbb raise gets 5 callers and only 1-2 folds to a continuation bet?
don't do a continuation bet.
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Laeelin
Old 09-04-2005, 08:21 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laeelin
So, what do ya'll recomend doing when a 5xbb raise gets 5 callers and only 1-2 folds to a continuation bet?
don't do a continuation bet.

Thanks Gabe, nice to know that somone here can actually offer advice instead of just ridiculing.

Q. Is poker Gambling?
A. Do you use correct bankroll management?
 
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Seabass
Old 09-05-2005, 10:31 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Not raising your good cards is a bad idea. As for continuation bets vs fish, if you dont hit and you got 3-4 callers (or 5) with you, dont bet. Someone prolly hit something and a mad fish with something aint folding. If it was HU on the other hand, you hafto.

Alsow, if they are that bad, they are going to pay you the times you hit so why not make the pot bigger when you got a good hand?
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biondino
Old 09-05-2005, 11:16 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Yeah, it should be common sense that continuation bets against calling stations will just lose you money. Having said that, a few losing continuation bets followed by exactly the same bet when you flop a straight and you're laughing.

Also, Laeelin, aren't you a pretty good player? What are you doing at the fishy limits?
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Old 09-05-2005, 11:46 AM #13 (permalink)  
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This is what you do:
Raise with hands that have better chance to win than the average hand that's in the pot. The very marginal hands can't stand up to a re-raise though, so just limp with those.

BUT, you MUST raise with AKs
Because just the fact that you have two suited cards gives you an additional 5% chance to win the pot. Say there are six people in the pot after you raised. Now from a 25% chance to win you'd have with AK you'll have a whopping 30% chance!

The best part is that if you don't hit anything on the flop no backdoor draws, nothing, you can fold to a moderately-sized bet if you don't have the odds for your overcards.

So the pot unraised will probably be on average 40 big blinds
your three times raise brings it up to 58 big blinds
it costs you 2 big blinds to make this raise
you're profiting 18 * .3 - 2 = 2.8 big blinds on average every time you raise and get called by six players when holding AKs

So on average you'll be gaining money every time you raise in that spot. In fact, the more you raise the better, as long as they call!
Using similar logic you can show that AKo is STILL profitable due to its win rate against six players.

There is no reason to play this tight. It's unprofitable. As long as you're bankrolled for the game, there is NO reason whatsoever to limp with AK. Exceptions might be heads-up where the blinds are small so you don't want your opponent to believe you have the ace or the king and hopefully take a big chunk of his stack where he tries to bluff you on a king or ace high flop :P

Anyway, no matter how many players in the hand, AK is still profitable. It's indeed less profitable with the entire table in the hand, but it's still EV+ so raise. Sure, even fish have aces sometimes, but they don't have them often enough to make raising with AK unprofitable.
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Laeelin
Old 09-05-2005, 02:17 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
Yeah, it should be common sense that continuation bets against calling stations will just lose you money. Having said that, a few losing continuation bets followed by exactly the same bet when you flop a straight and you're laughing.
I started thinking about this the other day sitting at a .50/1.00 table with 50% VP$IP (!?!?!) Unlike the normal 15% - 35% ...

I should have been raking in the money at that table, but I was loseing money at it... NOTHING hit.

I didnt get so much as 2 pair for the entire hour the table was like that.

AK lost 3 times to Ax when Ax hit 2 pair (once on the river)


Quote:
Also, Laeelin, aren't you a pretty good player? What are you doing at the fishy limits?
This was at the .50/1.00 limits, but sometimes you can hit some real fish there.

I'm good at playing cards, but just learning to play good poker.

Huge diffrence there

Q. Is poker Gambling?
A. Do you use correct bankroll management?
 
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0live
Old 09-05-2005, 07:12 PM #15 (permalink)  

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A continuation bet is only effective versus one or two other players, and hopefully the players have some concept of table image and position. Against 3-5 opponents a continuation bet is useless since somebody probably has a pair, and a lot of fishy players will call with middle pair to the river.
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Bmxicle
Old 09-05-2005, 09:26 PM #16 (permalink)  
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i experimented w/ it for a while, and it worked out ok, but i've gone back to raising stuff preflop. It just complicates stuff too much for AA/KK.

Now i'm very inconsistent with what i do , sometimes i'll limp Call AK, limp raise 62o utg, or just make my standard raise w/ a good hand.
 
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r8ed
Old 09-06-2005, 02:31 AM #17 (permalink)  
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If everyone keeps calling when you have power hands, make your preflop raise even higher. Then your continuation bet will work as normal.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:56 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by r8ed
If everyone keeps calling when you have power hands, make your preflop raise even higher. Then your continuation bet will work as normal.
No, it won't. Do you see why?
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DoGGz
Old 09-06-2005, 09:18 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Wow, just wow.

Raise when you have the best of it.
Don't continue with hands vs fish when you don't have them beat.

How hard is that?

PS: You don't always hit your hands, it happens. Fold.
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Rondavu
Old 09-06-2005, 06:49 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doggz
Wow, just wow.

Raise when you have the best of it.
Don't continue with hands vs fish when you don't have them beat.

How hard is that?

PS: You don't always hit your hands, it happens. Fold.
Eureka! Limping good hands is for chumps.

Yogi Berra once said...

If you hit the flop, then it won't hurt to bet it.
If you miss the flop, then it won't hurt to fold.

Something like that. I think I'm lying.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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The_Cheat
Old 09-06-2005, 09:51 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Quote:
Originally Posted by doggz
Wow, just wow.

Raise when you have the best of it.
Don't continue with hands vs fish when you don't have them beat.

How hard is that?

PS: You don't always hit your hands, it happens. Fold.
Eureka! Limping good hands is for chumps.

Yogi Berra once said...

If you hit the flop, then it won't hurt to bet it.
If you miss the flop, then it won't hurt to fold.

Something like that. I think I'm lying.
that was brilliant, rondavu.

limping good hands is for chumps. stupid chumps who dont like winning at poker.
Don't Hate the Playa, Hate the Cheat

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a500lbgorilla
Old 09-06-2005, 11:41 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laeelin
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laeelin
So, what do ya'll recomend doing when a 5xbb raise gets 5 callers and only 1-2 folds to a continuation bet?
don't do a continuation bet.

Thanks Gabe, nice to know that somone here can actually offer advice instead of just ridiculing.
You're fat

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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BIGandRICH
Old 09-07-2005, 06:24 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Eureka! Limping good hands is for chumps.
limping in LP with many other limpers can be of good value at low stakes.. minimum risk, maximum pay off
villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
 
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Old 09-07-2005, 06:30 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BIGandRICH
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Eureka! Limping good hands is for chumps.
limping in LP with many other limpers can be of good value at low stakes.. minimum risk, maximum pay off
No. Can you see why?
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BIGandRICH
Old 09-07-2005, 06:40 AM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGandRICH
limping in LP with many other limpers can be of good value at low stakes.. minimum risk, maximum pay off
No. Can you see why?
No. I cant.

I should have elaberated further.. I'm talking about extra fishy tables.. where you will get pay off.. and primarily for implied hands, low pairs/suited connectors
villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
 
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Old 09-07-2005, 07:00 AM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGandRICH
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGandRICH
limping in LP with many other limpers can be of good value at low stakes.. minimum risk, maximum pay off
No. Can you see why?
No. I cant.

I should have elaberated further.. I'm talking about extra fishy tables.. where you will get pay off.. and primarily for implied hands, low pairs/suited connectors
We're talking about limping with AK here.
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BIGandRICH
Old 09-07-2005, 07:06 AM #27 (permalink)  
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ahhh.. well then i've changed my view on this topic.. do you see why?
villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
 
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Old 09-07-2005, 07:07 AM #28 (permalink)  
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ahhh.. well then i've changed my view on this topic.. do you see why?
Yes, yes I do.
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fender55
Old 09-07-2005, 07:35 AM #29 (permalink)  
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I had a situation with this today, and this thread has helped me realize my mistakes. I'm new to hold 'em, maybe 4 months or so, so just a baby, but I try to do my homework and play as much as I can for real life experience and usually clean up against fish except for what I tried to pull today.

I was on the button with AK and raised 4x the bb, it was a table of fish so I knew it would pay off. Flop was rags, so make a bluf at it? I guess thats the first mistake with low limit fish tables... Anyway, got called down and my AK was beat by 4s! That bastard! A lesson learned, no continuation betting trying to steal pots at low limit tables with fish. Ok.
Cory
 
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BIGandRICH
Old 09-07-2005, 08:39 AM #30 (permalink)  
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All who have lost a stack to a calling station say "I"

I

though really.. you may have made a perfectly fine move, need more details of your hand to really know.
villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
 
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Irisheyes
Old 09-07-2005, 09:09 AM #31 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fender55
I was on the button with AK and raised 4x the bb, it was a table of fish so I knew it would pay off. Flop was rags, so make a bluf at it? I guess thats the first mistake with low limit fish tables... Anyway, got called down and my AK was beat by 4s!
Probably only continuation bet the flop. If you get called I check the turn and give it up to a bet. Betting the turn is throwing away money at the low stakes IMO. Always try to figure out who the calling stations are before you start making excessive continuations as well.
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Rondavu
Old 09-08-2005, 11:55 AM #32 (permalink)  
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Dammit, I wish they'd stop raising before the flop. How do they expect to make money if theres only 2 people in the hand!!!
Classic. Sounds like my friends grandmothers house. Everyone at the table groans when it gets raised, and then everyone calls every time. I mean everyone. Then the person who raised groans (me), and everyone at the table says "Well, that's what you get Mr. Raiser". Meanwhile they're holding 38 offsuit, 92 offsuit, J4, while I'm holding KK.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Irisheyes
Old 09-08-2005, 01:02 PM #33 (permalink)  
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It's something I said to a friend once when I had just started playing poker... Thems were the days, back when QJo was the nutz.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 09-08-2005, 01:46 PM #34 (permalink)  
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Alright, There is a way to prove which is better.

Pick a random hand that has been a losing hand for you JQo, 57s, anything that you don't normally play.

Everytime you're dealt that hand, raise with it.

See if it remains a loser, or if it becomes a winner.

-'rilla

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You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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PokerPatNEU
Old 09-08-2005, 02:00 PM #35 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Alright, There is a way to prove which is better.

Pick a random hand that has been a losing hand for you JQo, 57s, anything that you don't normally play.

Everytime you're dealt that hand, raise with it.

See if it remains a loser, or if it becomes a winner.

-'rilla
Or starts losing less!
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DaHorror
Old 09-08-2005, 03:02 PM #36 (permalink)  
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I know most folks like to raise a standard amount (5x bb or whatever) to disguise the strength of their hand.
However as Laelin has mentioned, 5x too often gets 6 callers, and not many hands 'sides suited connectors play well with that many.

Does anyone playing at the fishiest tables change their raise amount based on the number of limpers preflop? Meaning, maybe bump it up by 1 bb per limper before you?

A second question on continuation betting - when you do it on the flop, do you bet pot or 2/3 pot as you would if you had a real hand (assuming that there are only 1 or 2 others in the hand with you)?
I'm assuming that using the standard amount is the only way to really get them to work at all.
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Irisheyes
Old 09-08-2005, 03:29 PM #37 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHorror
Does anyone playing at the fishiest tables change their raise amount based on the number of limpers preflop? Meaning, maybe bump it up by 1 bb per limper before you?
Yes. And depending on how aggressive the table is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHorror
A second question on continuation betting - when you do it on the flop, do you bet pot or 2/3 pot as you would if you had a real hand (assuming that there are only 1 or 2 others in the hand with you)?
I'm assuming that using the standard amount is the only way to really get them to work at all.
Yes. Bet like I have a high pp.
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drmcboy
Old 09-08-2005, 04:32 PM #38 (permalink)  
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Thoughts?
Read Theory of Poker.
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r8ed
Old 09-09-2005, 07:56 PM #39 (permalink)  
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If 5 people will call 5xBB, then I don't see why raising 10xBB plus won't scare 4 out. If that does not work then bump it up higher. Even fish are smart enough to fold QT to a 10xBB raise. If not, please call me immediately so I can join the table.

By the way, QQ and KK will lose at a high rate with 4+ callers too. Unless you hit trips, you will get outdrawn or an Ace will pair. So, the solution for all your power hands is to isolate. The only way to isolate is to bet higher than they are willing to go.
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ChezJ
Old 09-09-2005, 08:46 PM #40 (permalink)  
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 if you are going to "bluff" with AK then it will only work against 1 or max 2 opponents. if you are seeing the flop with a bunch of calling stations, then there is absolutely no way you're going to buy it uncontested. generally you should not be bluffing at all against calling stations, just value betting. in a heads up situation i will value bet ace high if checked to.
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