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sarbox68

10-23-2006, 09:56 PM Post subject: Anyone else experience this?

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Now up to about 18K hands. Going through the stats and made an interesting observation.

1) I'm playing starting hands *almost* exactly as listed in SSHE tables
2) I've virtually eliminated cold calling
3) I'm paying attention to CR and raises on the T & R
4) Betting more aggressively into draws where pot odds are positive
5) Playing less hands and playing less thru Turn if pot odds don't add up

I'M LOSING SIGNIFICANTLY MORE MONEY QUICKER THAN 20K HANDS AGO WHEN I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION TO MUCH OF ANY OF THIS STUFF!!

So here's my thoughts on this and would love to hear if anyone experienced (is experiencing the same)...

1) When I played more hands and followed more stuff to River regardless of pot odds, I would (accidentally) draw out on stuff that made me some good sized pots. I've eliminated those $ by tightening up.
2) I can now explain what I was doing and why for 99% of the hands I play, and in retrospect, still like my choices on 85+% of those hands after showdown, regardless of whether I win. However, on many big hands, I'm just not getting the best cards by the SD... Chalk some of that up to variance, but with more aggression early to try and protect hand this is a becoming a big *OUCH*....
3) I have extended periods of decent steady progress... picking up a couple of BB here and there off by being more aggressive, pushing draws, etc... and saving some BB here and there by folding to CR and T or R raises with only TPTK.

4) ... and this is what I think is the killer...
I get hit with big losses in hands such as set to FH, two pair, premium pockets or TPTK to two pair/sets or straight/flushes that are drawn out to the River. These losses are bigger for me now than they used to be, because I'm playing more aggressively... and so far the number of big hands that have gone in my favor are WAY less than the one's I'm winning.

So.... bigger losses on the big hands due to more aggressiveness (but potentially not enough skill to navigate being outdrawn enough?) and less "lucky gambooling" wins is giving me the growing deficit.... one that I'm hoping will outgrow as get better, but for now is frustrating as hell!

Does *ANY* of this make sense or anyone else had similar experience?

At least the venting makes me feel a little better.......

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jackvance

10-23-2006, 10:07 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

The lower limits, where I assume you are playing, are very easy to beat. But you have to play a certain way, otherwise you can lose very fast aswell. Today I played quite a bit, at 20 ptBB/100 and AA was my single biggest loser so I wasn't on a heater or anything.

From your description I think the problems are:
- never cold calling. I know about this raise or fold thing, but it's just hogwash in practice. It's nice to do it for a while so you get the hang of it, but it's far from a good idea at the lower limits.
- betting aggressively into draws at the lower limits is BAD. You don't have the implied odds that much and you get called too much.
- playing too aggressive. If you think you should try to steal pots and bluff at stuff and not show weakness etc.. forget about that nonsense at lower stakes.

Here's a little thing you should try. Raise only premiums (a bit more on button/CO), try to see quite a bit of flops cheaply. Almost never call PFR (most people on lower limits are like 1-5% PFR). Then when you hit a monster, grossly overplay it. Betting $5 on a $1.5 pot, stuff like that. I bet you'll already do better than you do now.

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

sandstorm

10-23-2006, 10:13 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Sweden

Posts: 573

are you playing NL? (guess you are).
SSHE is a limit book and a lot of the advice there are bad for o limit. it's hard to tell what to do, post some hands. also, cold calling is not so bad in NL.

>3

this is my favourite part of the post
it looks like angry boobs

sarbox68

10-23-2006, 10:33 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Sorry... forgot to clarify. Am playing limit. Worked up to $1/$2 but have now moved back to .5/1 after too many losing sessions as described above.

MiJ

10-23-2006, 10:41 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Miami

Posts: 208

playing SSHE style =more variance, more swings ...meaning you'll lose a large amount when you do lose but you'll win a big amount when you win...you also have to remember that 18k hands is nothing LHE, i've heard of really good players going through downswings for 50k plus hands ..one of the main reasons i quite LHE, the variance sux ....

Tom42

10-23-2006, 10:52 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2006

Posts: 110

As said it's hard to tell without specifics. But in general it takes time to really know a style and have a feel for how your opps will react to it. I'm guessing therein lies the problem, you probably haven't made it your own. As such it should only be a passing problem. Keep at it and get better.

sandstorm

10-23-2006, 11:06 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Sweden

Posts: 573

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Sorry... forgot to clarify. Am playing limit. Worked up to $1/$2 but have now moved back to .5/1 after too many losing sessions as described above.

ok nevermind then, i read "pushing draws" and just assumed

>3

this is my favourite part of the post
it looks like angry boobs

Xanadu

10-24-2006, 03:27 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: st. paul, MO

Posts: 966

Post some hand histories in the limit forum. There's no way to tell if your doing things wrong otherwise. One thing's for sure, it's not because you are building big pots with big hands and not taking as many big pots by not sucking out by continuing hands you shouldn't. That's just silly talk.

kyc12

10-24-2006, 03:53 AM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2006

Posts: 89

I'll suggest you do something like Anosmic did. Pick a topic (say TPTK hands, or draws, or sets), and post all those hands you played during a session, no matter you win or lose the hand. That way we don't focus on hands that you are beat because you're unlucky.

Anosmic's thread is here:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-44415.htm

Other suggestions:
1) Use a HUD, pick tables with 40+% seeing flop, and sit behind someone that is loose.
2) Maybe drop down to .25/.5. If you can beat it soundly you can move back up quickly.

sarbox68

10-24-2006, 04:40 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Okay... just wanted to say thanks for ALL the great suggestions, feedback etc!! Read a post on one of the forums from some foo saying this isn't the place for newbies to be... I haven't seen anything here but a lot of great people willing to help out where they can!

I'll do the targeted post thing... makes a lot of sense and will allow me to focus on getting better at playing specific types of hands. Plus makes it a lot easier for people to give feedback. Great suggestion... Will also try the table selection piece and back off to .25/.50 until start posting some consecutive winning sessions.

Xanadu - I know sucking out on hands I shouldn't be in isn't the answer. I just know I'm playing better (at least in hand selection, pot odds etc...) so would be nice to at least see some improvement in results, you know? That was the venting part of the post I think....

To MiJ's point, I can see how the SSHE approach could give bigger variance swings. More aggressive means more at risk, but higher EV payout over time....

Thanks again and will keep on working......

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