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Analysis Help - Could I have extracted more?

  
 
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Vinland
Old 11-20-2008, 01:22 PM     Post subject: Analysis Help - Could I have extracted more? #1 (permalink)  
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 As the title says, could I have extracted more? So obviously I won the hand, I know people don't like to see the results but here they are. I have typically had a difficult time extracting more money out of players when I have the winning hand. I got into this pot which, yes, was a good pot, but, could I have done better?

The villain was middle of the road as far as tight or loose goes. I just didn't want to give away too much info or scare him off with big bets. I still did well pot wise but could I have got more of his chips, even doubled up? I did my best to act like I was on the draw so could I have put out the large river bet acting like a busted draw?

I am specifically referring to the turn and river bets.
Your help is appreciated.

PokerStars Game #22168768025: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05) –
UTG+ 1: ($3.01 in chips)
UTG+ 2: ($8.77 in chips)
UTG+ 3: ($13.24 in chips)
UTG+ 4: Hero ($5.43 in chips)
Button: Villain ($9.72 in chips)
SB: ($10.25 in chips)
BB: ($5 in chips)
UTG: ($9.35 in chips)
SB: posts small blind $0.02
BB: posts big blind $0.05

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [9s As]
UTG: folds
+1: folds
+2: folds
+3: folds
Hero: calls $0.05
Villain: calls $0.05
SB: calls $0.03
BB: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ts 5s Qs]
SB: checks
BB: checks
Hero: checks
Villain: bets $0.15
SB: folds
BB: folds
Hero: calls $0.15
*** TURN *** [Ts 5s Qs] [6c]
Hero: bets $0.15
Villain: raises $0.30 to $0.45
Hero: calls $0.30
*** RIVER *** [Ts 5s Qs 6c] [2h]
Hero: bets $0.25
Villain: calls $0.25
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero: shows [9s As] (a flush, Ace high)
Villain: mucks hand
Hero collected $1.85 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.90 | Rake $0.05
Board [Ts 5s Qs 6c 2h]
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-20-2008, 01:35 PM #2 (permalink)  
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You flopped a nut flush and the board doesn't pair so I think it's fine that we know you won.

Comments on your preflop play? Comments on your flop check-call? Comments on your turn smooth call? Comments on river donk size?

I don't like much about this hand.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Vinland
Old 11-20-2008, 01:56 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 I can give a few points as to my thinking...
The table was a limpfest the time I was there and it was the best cards I saw in a while so I limped in, confident that no one would raise.

On the flop I checked b/c I wanted to get him to believe that I was trying to hit my flush as cheap as possible.

On the turn I didn't know if I should reraise. I didnt want him to think I had a good set so I smooth called and took time doing it.

On the river I was going to put in about $0.80 but I just didn't know what he had. So thats why I priced him in with $.25. I figured better something than nothing.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-20-2008, 02:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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3 later streets show weakness in your thought processes at the table.

preflop I think is fine if you didn't expect someone to raise.

On the flop, I'd tend to bet. Since it's a limp pot, we can't expect anyone else to bet unless they're taking a stab at the pot and it sucks when it gets checked through (because smaller pot on the turn, means smaller turn bet and thusly smaller river value bet AND more spades slow down our action especially vrs smaller flushes). You should never do things to try to send signals to your opponent like "I don't have it but I'm calling!" Your line is coherent with the nut flush but your bet sizing sucks.

If anyone calls my turn bet, it's because they have a range of hands which I can stack off on non-spade non-paired turns. I would continue to place forward as many chips as I think make sense for me to continue to bet.

Your line loses money vrs all smaller flushes, sets and 2 pair combos. Basically everything he could bet.

You could have extracted more if you were thinking about getting value from his range rather trying to make him think you don't have the goods so he pays off you're huge 5 big blind river value bet.

You could have extracted more if you bet flop, bet turn, bet river.

If they fold the flop and you have a nut flush, that shouldn't worry you because over the set of every nut flush you will flop at these stakes, this line will net you the most american dollars.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Vinland
Old 11-20-2008, 04:10 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Vinland is an unknown quantity at this point
 So to summerize your post you would advise?

Flop: value bet and hope he calls?
Turn: Bet and smooth call the raise, or reraise his raise?
River: Bet (How much? 1/2 to pot size?)

I can't imagine he had better than 2 pair. But thats going on limited reads of the player. I hated my small river bet even at the time but I felt that once I called his reraise on the turn that he would probably be clued into the fact that he was up against something.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-20-2008, 04:33 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Nope, that does very poorly to summarize my advice.

Approach the hand not as considering that your opponent probably didn't have better than 2 pair but that he has a range of hands (based on his action, I would be shocked if he could never show up with 2 pair here). How can you play you hand (which is part of a range of hands you would play like this) to maximize profits against his hand range (all of the hands he would play like he played)?

Telling you how to play each street won't help your game at all, im afraid.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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FeltOntheTable
Old 11-20-2008, 04:34 PM #7 (permalink)  

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FeltOntheTable
You will get the most value with bet/bet/bet at least half pot. Call any flop raise, and reraise a turn or river raise.
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kettleofish
Old 11-20-2008, 04:36 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinland

I can't imagine he had better than 2 pair.
Dude, this is on Pokerstars right? The hh should tell u what he mucked...
There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.
 
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Robb
Old 11-20-2008, 04:48 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 It's gonna be difficult to extract value from smaller hands once the flush hits the board. Seriously, how far are YOU gonna bet TPTK into a monotone board if you don't have to? Also, if the board pairs, your nut flush might be in trouble.

All that said, start betting early, imo. So many players slow play the flush that betting out a PSB or 3/4 PSB on a monotone flop can wrong-foot ppl who think you're weak and are just trying to take a stab at it w/ TPTK or something.

Just remember, they will often have to fold. They have to both hit the flop and think you DON'T have the flush before they'll commit any chips. The worst thing you can do is slow-play, imo, waiting for someone to spike a hand that beats you. Having everyone fold in this spot is normal. Getting a caller on a PSB or two is awesome, and it'll happen often enough over time to make a strong cbet here profitable.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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Vinland
Old 11-20-2008, 05:07 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 The advice makes sense...

Thanks!
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