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WhooFleuryScores

10-25-2005, 04:47 AM Post subject: Am I just not cut out for this?

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Massachusetts

Posts: 918

Send a message via AIM to WhooFleuryScores

The following is a comment I received from another player from another poker forum where I am also a member:

Quote:

WFS my friend, it is a sinking ship. jump while the jumping is good. i'm not trying to be a dick, but you've been posting hands for a long time, and clearly play alot. i know ex bangladeshi sweatshop workers who probably made more per hour then you do.

So.......at what point as a player do you begin to wonder if you are semi-pro/money making material?Or just another player who like many golfers,bowlers who play for fun/hobby and that is it?

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_KO_

10-25-2005, 05:45 AM Post subject: Re: Am I just not cut out for this?

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posts: 83

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

The following is a comment I received from another player from another poker forum where I am also a member:

Quote:

So.......at what point as a player do you begin to wonder if you are semi-pro/money making material?Or just another player who like many golfers,bowlers who play for fun/hobby and that is it?

I'm sure some sweatshop workers do better than I do, too. Technically, though, I'm still a profitable player and understand I'm still learning. I also love to play, so the amount of profit vs the hours put in isn't a factor for me right now. But if I were a losing player and the losses were affecting my ability to pay my bills and the time spent negatively affecting relationships I would have to re-evaluate that. Right now, though, I still believe this will be lucrative for me in the longrun.

That's me. What about you? Only you can tell you when to make that decision for you. If you're feeling like that, though, and the lessons on your hand histories aren't sinking in, maybe you're just missing the forest through the trees. Step back and take a break for a couple of weeks and maybe when you return a lightbulb goes off. Even if not, you might decide you there's nothing wrong with having a hobby like poker.

~~ KO

"Argue for your limitations and, sure enough, they're yours." ~~ The Messiahs Handbook

A10Chief

10-25-2005, 03:24 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Germany

Posts: 285

In all honesty, if I were you I wouldn't pay a lick of attention to what that guy said. You're still posting hand histories, so you obviously are still trying to improve your game. Not everyone is going to be a big money maker, but remember, Doyle Brunson and Amarillo Slim used to come home broke sometimes, too. I would say keep playing until you don't enjoy it anymore, and don't listen to people like that who obviously feel the need to put somebody down to make themselves feel better.

There's three types of people in the world...those who can count, and those who can't.

biondino

10-25-2005, 03:47 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

Also, when was the last time any comment containing the words "my friend" was ever positive?

saxdaddy

10-25-2005, 03:55 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 37

Just how much does an ex Bangladeshi sweat shop worker make? Does he make more now that he left the sweat shop or are you talking about when he worked at the sweat shop? At least playing poker you are not working for anyone else, although you are contributing to the 2 mill a day rake sites like Partypoker are making. If poler was all I did, I don't think it would be as fun. There would be pressure to make money. That would suck. I like my job fortunately, and poker is fun. If you can stick it out for about a million hands and have a decent BR to show for it, I think you might have the information you need to be semi-pro, but who cares. Just play and have fun, and if you win, buy yourself a nice prize!

thirteen

10-25-2005, 04:23 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 235

I'm also only marginally profitable (its taken me 3 months to go from $50 to $170). Every time I come away from a losing session I wonder what if I'm nuts to think I can ever be good at this game.

Will people like us ever rise to the level of Fnord, 'Rilla, Ilikeaces, and any other forum members making money at this game? I really don't know...

I know I've read some tales of professionals pissing away hundreds and sometimes thousands to learn the game before becoming 'pros'. I've also heard about people who struggle for years as losing or break even players, while they try to take in as much knowledge of the game as they can... then suddenly it starts to 'click' for them and they begin to build into a profitable player.

For some of us, becoming 'profitable' may be a longer process... each person has they're own learning style, type and speed. Everyone has their own leaks to plug. Some easy, some hard.

Want a humbling experience? Go back as far as you can in the archives of this forum. I did this one rainy day. Many of the profitable players currently here came from humble beginnings, posting hand histories and asking questions. For me it was somewhat motivational to see that.

I think the funny thing with poker is that we learn some new techniques, try them, have some success and think we're finally 'getting it'. Then we run into some new situations, or different opponents and slide back down and get depressed about it. There is so much to learn that it truly takes a lifetime to master this game. None of the successful players here learned overnight.

You can't guarantee success in any game, job, or endeavor. All you can do is work hard and evaluate your position occasionally. Are you still enjoying poker? Are you pissing money away when you can't afford to? Are you losing too much time over poker? Is your interest declining? Are you still committed to achieving goals as a player?

Don't let one comment in a forum get you down. By asking tough questions of others and yourself your obtaining an understanding of the game and an understanding of yourself.

Unless its causing you too much emotional or financial hardship, keep going till you no longer desire to play this game.

Miffed22001

10-25-2005, 08:40 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

I played for 6 months without being profitable and then it took another 4 for me to start making money that looked like profit.
It was only 'pocket money' but if you are profitable i suggest you carry on but take a few weeks off then come back do some good studying of the game and most importnatly YOUR game (this worked for me) and then start again. Try to start afresh menatlly if possible. Hopefully this will help. It sounds to me as if you have turned negative mentally to the game at the moment because you feel you arent making stacks of money. Maybe you can only make a suplementary amount per week, but thats money you didnt have before isnt it?!

Aces

10-25-2005, 09:24 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2004

Posts: 832

It depends what your goals are. At some point, the majority of us paid a "tax" to learn how to play the game. Then progressing to break even play and eventually eeking out a small profit. Depending on how much time you have to study, improve, and play hopefully this turns into some signifigant cash, which is different for each person. A tiny fraction go on to make a living from poker.

You're past at least the first two stages, so as long as you enjoy it, any profit at all is gravy. You have to remember that most poker players never get to this point. If your main goal is make gobs of money and you should be spending your poker time on other things then maybe you should rethink it, but otherwise who cares what some dweeb thinks.

Personally it took me about a year to get the point where I am making a consistant profit(not every session obviously). It was frustrating, but my goal was to continue learning and improving until I either didn't enjoy it or was too discouraged by my lack of improvement.

a500lbgorilla

10-25-2005, 10:14 PM Post subject: Re: Am I just not cut out for this?

#9 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

The following is a comment I received from another player from another poker forum where I am also a member:

Quote:

So.......at what point as a player do you begin to wonder if you are semi-pro/money making material?Or just another player who like many golfers,bowlers who play for fun/hobby and that is it?

link?

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

fade177

10-25-2005, 10:58 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: North Carolina

Posts: 144

I think it's fair to say that certain people are more gifted than others at finding the right tables, and playing the right hands and making the most of their time. But to be honest with you, I simply love the challenge. I'm beginning to show signs of being a profitable player, but there are tons of people, especially in this forum better than me. Granted, I'm the type of guy who refuses to stagnate, In everything I do I try and get better, and you "my friend" (I don't really know you, but if your on FTR than your cool in my book) can get better, and shove it right back in your so called friend's face. But then again remember, not all of us plan to play online poker and quit jobs or school to do so ( I don't). Make goals appropriate to what your capable of attaining and then go for it. Keep all things in perspective and you will soon realize there is more to poker than raking 10K a month...

I feel like sharin a little Taoism on perspective:

Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub;
It is the center hole that makes it useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore benefit comes from what is there;
Usefulness from what is not there.

Chapter 11 of the Tao Te Ching

We are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world

WhooFleuryScores

10-26-2005, 01:34 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Massachusetts

Posts: 918

Quote:

Then we run into some new situations, or different opponents and slide back down and get depressed about it.

The hardest thing for me has been dealing with the Party split with the skins.Clearing PLAYOCT,RELOAD MADNESS,SHAW,has been a humbling experience for me as I've come to realize playing other players who do their hw as well isn't so easy.Part of it has been a few mistakes here and there;part of it has also been me missing my strong draws or being sucked out on.

Quote:

Keep all things in perspective and you will soon realize there is more to poker than raking 10K a month...

Thanks for all the feedback and advice guys;it's much appreciated.I took the day off from poker btw;maybe Wed or Thurs I'll play a couple tables.

thirteen

10-26-2005, 01:05 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 235

A few days off might do you some good. I'm currently taking a week off from poker. My head wasn't right, I wasn't focused like i needed to be.

Hey if you really want some fishy action... come over to pacific, you can take some money off me and the others swimming around the NL $10 tables. LOL.

pokerlearner

10-26-2005, 06:55 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: california

Posts: 366

WhooFleuryScores, you are on the right track as long as you have the urge to learn from your mistakes (or learn about your variance). There will be times where you will play a hand MOST PERFECTLY and still lose. There will be times where you will play incorrectly and still win. Long term though, your winnings will come from your making less mistakes than your opponents.

As for your "friend" pay no attention. There was a time when I was on a losing streak like i have never imagined. i started questioning my play, my hand selection everything. every beat imaginable happened.

here is where FTR came to rescue. Other players will tell you that they have gone through worse things, worse beats and worse downswings. You just need to keep making the correct plays and it will pay off.

bottomline.

LEARN THE RIGHT PLAY, MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS, MONEY WILL TAKE CARE OF ITSELF IN THE LONG RUN

(sorry about all caps...

)

BoondockSaint

10-26-2005, 08:24 PM Post subject: Re: Am I just not cut out for this?

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Indiana

Posts: 1,844

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

The following is a comment I received from another player from another poker forum where I am also a member:

Quote:

So.......at what point as a player do you begin to wonder if you are semi-pro/money making material?Or just another player who like many golfers,bowlers who play for fun/hobby and that is it?

link?

-'rilla

Yeah link???????? Me and rilla will hunt this mofo down and beat him into oblivion. Sound good!!!!!1

WhooFleuryScores

10-27-2005, 02:17 AM

#15 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Massachusetts

Posts: 918

Quote:

There was a time when I was on a losing streak like i have never imagined. i started questioning my play, my hand selection everything. every beat imaginable happened.

How long did it take for you to get through the streak?Currently I am on a massive downswing recently despite finding some juicy Party tables.I've gotten to a point where I am just focused on my play and not worrying about the results as much.This downswing is so brutal yet it seems to be teaching me alot as well.

LeFou

10-27-2005, 05:48 AM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 2,361

Quote:

Originally Posted by thirteen

Want a humbling experience? Go back as far as you can in the archives of this forum. I did this one rainy day. Many of the profitable players currently here came from humble beginnings, posting hand histories and asking questions. For me it was somewhat motivational to see that.

Oh, god, please don't do that. I shudder to think of the stuff I was spouting a year ago.

Now I don't know if I'm one of the "successful" guys but I'm cashing out a chunk every month with not-that-much play and not-nearly-enough study

I don't know what motivated your correspondent, there, but you might. Was it a fairly extensive knowledge of how you play? Or just taking a bit of a shot at you?

Are you realistic about your winrate/etc.? If you want career-type profits, you need to work at this job 8-10 hours a day like any other career. Are you hoping for career-type profits with hobby-type hours/study? That's pure fishthink.

A lot of guys around here are looking for a hobby that's fun & somewhat profitable. If it makes minimum wage for you, then it still beats most hobbies -- which actually cost money! wtf?

Well, damn, that didn't end up cohering much. $.02

WhooFleuryScores

10-27-2005, 04:20 PM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Massachusetts

Posts: 918

Quote:

Are you hoping for career-type profits with hobby-type hours/study? That's pure fishthink.

In hindsight that's been a problem as well.I have to admit the proportion of time I spend playing ves evaluating and learning need to become more evenly balanced as well.It's like golfers who want to be good but they don't go to the driving range/putting/chipping green and instead pay for a round of golf every day instead of balancing the two.

jmontis

10-27-2005, 04:27 PM

#18 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 1,296

there is no "streak", it's about playing correctly in every situation over and over, and ignoring results.

Most players are so results oriented it's ridiculous, you can not expect to win hordes of cash every time you sit down in a game or tournament. It's just not going to happen.

Soupie made a great post a few months ago saying if you play for money, you should probably just quit, because it's not easy in the long run. It's not motivating, but it's very realistic.

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

koolmoe

10-27-2005, 05:52 PM

#19 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Drowning in prosperity

Posts: 1,279

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

I hardly ever study. I have never examined my PT database to look for leaks. Once you get past the fundamentals (think Theory of Poker), there's not a lot that traditional literature can offer. I have a pretty good memory, so rereading books doesn't help me a lot.

However, I think about hands all the time. I think about table texture probably more now than anything. I think about this stuff more than I think about how much I made in a session.

What I don't do anymore is lie awake at night thinking about how much money I won or lost playing poker, which I did a lot at first.

If you focus on the results or spend your time figuring out the earn rate you would need to earn X amount per month if you played 4 tables 8 hours a day, you'll never get anywhere.

If you care that you make less than a Bangladeshi sweat shop worker, you'll never get anywhere.

Just focus on figuring out what plays are good in which situations, understand why they are good plays, and focus on making good plays all the time no matter the circumstances.

And don't give a damn about what other people think of you. A good poker player wouldn't let someone get to them.

Poker is freedom

naturaltan

11-18-2005, 04:47 PM

#20 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 108

Great post Kool ... you and I are much alike in our outlook on poker and playing the game.

LeFou

11-18-2005, 06:04 PM

#21 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 2,361

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

However, I think about hands all the time. I think about table texture probably more now than anything. I think about this stuff more than I think about how much I made in a session.

As I was drifting off last night i had one of those cool streams of consciousness that consisted of a bunch of holecards and flops and bets and so on. Kinda like if you play tetris for a long time right before bed and as you fall asleep you see those damn shapes tumbling around.

WhooFleuryScores

11-20-2005, 01:58 AM

#22 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Massachusetts

Posts: 918

Quote:

As I was drifting off last night i had one of those cool streams of consciousness that consisted of a bunch of holecards and flops and bets and so on.

I've actually been experiencing that recently as well;rethinking certain hands and strategy and scenarios.

Pizzaman

11-20-2005, 02:26 AM

#23 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

However, I think about hands all the time. I think about table texture probably more now than anything. I think about this stuff more than I think about how much I made in a session.

I have seen this mentioned several time recently. What do you mean by "table texture"? And how can I use it to my advantage?

God Bless America

WhooFleuryScores

12-20-2005, 01:35 AM

#24 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Massachusetts

Posts: 918

You want to try to figure out if the table is loose/passive/maniacal etc.I f it's passive you can play and limp with more hands out of position preflop.If it's loose you can valuebet your monsters more.And if it's maniacal then you need to pick your spots and let it ride.

Nice avator btw.....

r8ed

12-20-2005, 06:01 PM

#25 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,524

On downswings and cold runs of cards, it's easy to get caught up in overplaying hands when you have them. This is a double-edged sword:
1. You overbet when you hit and don't make as much as you should.
2. You focus on your hole cards and don't realize you are beat until your money is in the middle.

The past week, I have either broken even or lost a tiny amount playing 3+hours a night. So, I started going through poker tracker, thinking about hands I was in and rethinking some things. When I went back to find a leak or a problem, I realized I was playing the same way as when I was winning. I lost to quads twice, higher set, higher flush, higher boat, etc. I played most of them correctly, but the cards fell out of my favor. A couple of those go my way and I"m not looking very hard for leaks. That said, you should periodically look over hands to figure out if you are playing them efficiently.

One more thing, make sure when you are working on a bonus that you don't make a poor decision knowing that the bonus you earn will cover your loss. I did this a couple times at first.

OK, one last thought. With all the support and knowledge here, it's difficult to NOT win at poker long term. But you must apply yourself. I would read stuff here and then go and play without sticking to a plan built on the new knowledge. It took me a long time to realize knowledge is useless if not used. I forced myself to evaluate how I play vs. how I should play. Then I played how I should play. I've been winning ever since.

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