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froggie53088
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04-08-2009, 08:06 AM
Post subject: are all donks consistent donks?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: EG NY
Posts: 21
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Im still playing 5$ max tables im running 3 or 4 at a time tryin to get my BR into the hundreds. I try to watch each table as much as possible and get some kind of read on the players. Il often put down notes on certain players, mostly bad ones, about things they do that are dumb that i could possibly exploit. I run into the same players continuously and i have notes on many of them. But since theyre so bad to begin with is it safe for me to follow my notes? im just worried this is going to get me into trouble and give me a false sense of a good read later on. Are donks always donks and always making the same dumb plays?
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froggie53088
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: EG NY
Posts: 21
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lol much better, its kind of a dumb question i guess but idk
im just curious if bad players have similar tendecies, i have the hardest time getting a read on donks
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i wanna be the very best like no one ever was....
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 701
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
It's not really correct to use sweeping statements with the words "all" and "always" because each fish is an individual entity. While some may be capable of learning and improving, others may not. As a rule though, if a fish wakes up, you'll know about it, so trust your notes until you have a reason not to. Also, what kind of retarded post is this.
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FYP
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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heh, what the fish said 
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Obviously, your reads are rarely going to lead to an exact answer as to what they are doing in a particular spot. Just because they call a flush draw on one flop, doesn't mean they are guaranteed to only call the flush draw on another. Just because they stacked off with Bottom Pair on one flop, doesn't mean they will always do it again. No matter how bad the player is he is still thinking. However, the worse he is the worse his logic is, and the more incorrect his general poker strategy is.
If you can find situations where he is making mistakes, such as it seems you have, then you can use that to make assessments about his play. Such as, regarding the villain who stacked off with bottom pair, you can make an assessment that maybe he hates to be bluffed and always thinks everyone is full of shit. Or that he overvalues his hand because pairs are hard to make. Either way, you can come to some sort of conclusion. Knowing that he stacks off with bottompair on a specific board giving a specific situation that isn't likely to be repeated anytime soon isn't likely to tell you much about your current situation/decision. However, you assumptions from those reads can.
For instance, while I might put a note like "b/called shove with JT on J52tt board in 3bet pot", the assumption I'm making is he stacks off lightly in 3bet pots. So I know I can value bet a bit thinner in 3bet pots, and not bluff as often.
Okay now I'm just rambling and likely to have totally missed the question. But imo, no.. They do not always make the same "donk" mistakes. However, if you notice one mistake you can begin to make assumptions about their play which should alter your strategy towards them in some manner.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Let's not derail this thread just yet. Some decent discussion may come of it.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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No, but once you run into enough of them you see similaries.
Try to put together an outline of their game without making judements.
What are they playing pre-flop? Raising? How much?
How do they play post-flop? What hands are they betting? Do they value money?
etc.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by froggie53088
lol much better, its kind of a dumb question i guess but idk
im just curious if bad players have similar tendecies, i have the hardest time getting a read on donks
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A read is obviously better than no read. However, donks are not hard to play against in most situations. You need to figure out what kind of donk he is. Is he the type to call down with alot of weak holdings? Or is he the type to bet bet bet with alot of weak holdings, or bluff alot?
If you can come to these pretty easily identifiable conclusions, without alot of other information you can begin to change your general strategy to exploit those tendencies. If he is calling with alot of crap you can begin to bet more often and more lightly for value and less often as a bluff. If he is betting very frequently with alot of weak holdings/bluffs, then you can begin to call more lightly and bluffraise more often.
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froggie53088
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: EG NY
Posts: 21
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thanks guys
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i wanna be the very best like no one ever was....
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Some players do improve, some do not, don't make a change in anticipation of an improvement (unless you already know he's capable of adjusting quickly). Wait until he shows you that he's playing better, until then, use the knowledge you have and continually modify it.
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RoyalProdigy
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 178
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Someone could have a bad day and just go ape $hit one day lmao and then the next day play good poker. My friend does it all the time, i find it pretty funny and try to help him not be a spew-tard (it never works)LMFAO. HAHA but anyways put the date on his note as well. A lot of people who go all in all in all in only do that because they are on tilt at the moment and obviosly you can pick that up and you should put that into your note on him. What you really want to look for are consistant gaps in his play. Work him work him till he goes on tilt again and again. Once you find a gap in someones play and they have the tendancy to go on tilt because they have short fuse then you just found a piggy bank my friend and you should search for him everytime you play.
Anyways if your notes are really good on him then you will notice if his game has changed and you can see how he has changed and that will help you gather info on him as well. gl at the tables
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Stack That Arab Money!!!
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Cougar
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 121
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In addition to betting patterns/leaks, I have found the notes to be very useful to help flag/remember unusual hand ranges for future use.
For instance, couple I remember noting last night:
"Villain called AI PF 80xbb shove with A9s"
or "Villain raised 10xbb in BB on top of 4 limpers with 72o"
Note: Villain stacked SB (AJo) on that latter hand when 22J hit the board
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------------------------
"...only time you stop learning is when your own ignorance & arrogance stops you from doing so!" -Martin Pritchett
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2ndline.4thstreet
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 120
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As a general rule I treat donks like donks until they prove otherwise. Every once in a while they'll surprise you - although they won't get me again after that.
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froggie53088
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: EG NY
Posts: 21
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yea cougar those notes are similar to the kind ive been taking
so i guess il just stick with that for now and hope they just stay bad forever and donate mad loot to me
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i wanna be the very best like no one ever was....
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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I would think you need some type of time indicator on your notes such as a date of #of hands with the villian. That way if you fun into him 20k hands later you may give him more credit than you did on the initial runin. As I am sure all of you here have and hopefully I have/will improve with time. IMO
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it  |
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jjbish
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 84
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I usually date my notes, but not always.
And for the record.
OP
I try to be a different type of donk on each table I play if I can. 
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NH, WP, GG, TY, Etc..........................
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kardmania
Two types of players where reads are irrevelant: pros and donks
If you need an explanation then you know you are a a donk
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wat?
Reads are obviously relevant against both donks and pros. You need to explain yourself sir.
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froggie53088
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: EG NY
Posts: 21
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now im no mathmatician but according to kardmania i think stacks is a donk...and i guess i am too so atleast im in good company
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i wanna be the very best like no one ever was....
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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I like to get more specific with my reads rather than "this guy is a donkey asshat" which are notes we usually put when we get sucked out on in a big pot.
I look for a few different types of donk players and write down their tendencies after showdowns give tell tale signs of their style.
Some examples of important reads to make. I like to use titles like this rather than map out specific hands he played unless its something that I think might actually help me in the future.
Calling station: After you see him call down against a non-lagg with a marginal hand for 2-3 streets or just generally never raises but calls a shitload. Here we want to bet for value and limit c-bets when the board hits his range hard unless we have it. No bluffing plz.
Blufftard- Typically had stats of like 60/30/8.0 and bets aggressively no matter what his holding or what the board reads. Here US being a calling station is not a bad play but generally getting it all in with a piece is good. These are the most profitable players to have on your table.. get their money fast before they go broke and for God sakes, sit to their left. 3-bet for value with a wide range.
C-bet monkey/weak-tight- Sometimes have decent tagg stats but are very weak postflop. When they raise and c-bet 60%+ you can pretty much check-raise any flop and its profitable.
Showdown monkey- Similar to the calling stations except they sometimes raise. They have a win $ at showdown % less than 25% so we can valuebet relentlessly and win assloads of cash.
Rock- Yes these guys are donkeys too, even though they think they are the shit. I typically call their raises with any reasonable hand and plan on stacking off with 2-pair+ but otherwise get the hell outta dodge postflop. Implied odds are huge here. Look for stats like 5/3/1.5+
Tilters- Look for people that talk a lot in the chat, criticize others play, etc. 3-bet them a couple of times then get ready to get paid with AA/KK very soon. Get a reloading tilter on your table and become richie rich.
Harringbots- (I stole this one from Arnold) I see them a lot in cash games too. They like to throw out probing donk bets and float overs/2nd pair, underpairs etc. double-barrel, raise their donks and its like winning the lottery. They sometimes have decent stats but don't be fooled, they suck. Very ABC, easy to exploit. (massive multi-tablers are usually these guys)
Shovasaurus Rex- Typically a short-stacker. Likes to 3-bet shove any pair, A10+. Probably has read a short-stacking guide. Raise smaller when they are behind you, 3-bet smaller when they actually raise since their implied odds are never good anyways. Don't set mine. Learn their shoving range and then try to get all in when in the top half of it. Very profitable to play against. Annoying to have them to your left.
Flippers- Easy to spot because they shove every hand. Call with anything 77+, A10+ and see $$.
There are a bunch more with many different variations/mixtures of the above that would be difficult to decipher at a glance, but this is enough for now. I also give titles to the decent players but that's for another thread.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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OP: even donks pick up AA and can stack you. Trust your reads, but anyone can get a big hand and get tricky at any time (FPS is the hallmark of donks). If you stack off preflop TT < AA because you've seen him limp/shove all-in with 22+ and A2s+, it's still a good read.
I try to separate my reads into two main categories: commits too many chips on bad hands (lots of donks make these mistakes) and folds too many good hands (less donks do this). You also have to keep preflop reads separate from postflop reads as many donks play a loose-aggressive style preflop and a weak-tight style postflop. If they call an extra street of value routinely on the flop/turn, then fold, but you've never observed his river play, err toward big value bets on the river.
I believe this is one thing stacks was talking about, taking a read from one situation and applying to another situation to infer what is likely to happen.
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kardmania
Two types of players where reads are irrevelant: pros and donks
If you need an explanation then you know you are a a donk
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Poor attempt at post whoring???
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it |
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kardmania
Two types of players where reads are irrevelant: pros and donks
If you need an explanation then you know you are a a donk
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Poor attempt at post whoring??? |
My thoughts exactly. I'll give him until tomorrow to respond and explain himself, or else that trash is getting deleted.
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helpme2win$
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Two Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 42
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i think for some of us keeping notes on the donks is a good thing . but if you dont run into him again for months he probably will play the same . for me seems like dont play enough to keep notes , but this forum has helped me with recognizing the donks .
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Some of my most profitable reads from donkeys have come from betting patterns and that's just about it.
I almost always catch someone whow check/calls the flop, check/calls the turn, openshoves the river, and think to myself.. WTF does he have... then he shows down a bluff...
Next time I get into it with my opponent, I valuebet, the flop and the turn to make it about a stack-sized pot for the river shove, and snapcall with top pair or better...
It took one poor bastard a month to figure out I knew that lline. Instead of trying to get value out of it, he'd run from every table I sat down at with him.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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RightMeow
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10
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i think for the most part they are consistant. Though they get lucky hands sometimes they will get good hands later... and you keep paying htme off cuz they are donks
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