www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

AKos is misunderstood

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

ArcticKnight

01-30-2005, 11:02 PM Post subject: AKos is misunderstood

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

There seems to be lots of threads out about the pros and cons of AKos. Some feel it's overrated, others feel it's underreated, but in general I find that a number of players just plain misunderstand the power and value of this hand.

I used to take what I thought were a lot of bad beats on AK, until I realized that is was "bad play" causing some extra losses that could have been prevented.

Here is what helps keep things in perspective for me.

Look at AK heads-up against, let's say 88, 99, or any other higher pair.

Your AK has great "potential to improve", but it NEEDS help. That's right, it is useless without help unless you plan to bet or bluff your way out of trouble.

10-10, on the other hand is a good hand waiting to get worse. Think about it... When you have medium to high pocket pairs you want to hit trips, but in reality you are just hoping that they "HOLD UP.'

If you want to make money with AK keep in mind that it is had great potential to be a monster, but that if you don't like the flop, and can't get to the turn very cheaply, then you must lay the hand down. You have nothing but hope and bad pot odds ahead of you.

So, even though you may have similar starting requirements with AK and JJ, there differences on what you "really" have end there.

In big pots your AK has low initial value, but high potentail for improvement.

In big pots your JJ has high initial value, but low chance for improvement (relative to opponents).

Ask yorself this. If you can muck your 55 post-flop if you didn't hits trips, why can't you muck your AK if you missed the flop? If you can muck the better hand (55), ask youself what kind of thoughts are getting in the way of not letting you muck your AK.

If you are like most people you enter with 55 "with hope" and you are perpared to muck (and without a second thought). However, you entered with AK "expecting" to improve, and u just can't let them go now..

Play AK with "hope" instead of "expectation," and you'll be a much better player.

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

elipsesjeff

01-31-2005, 12:59 AM

#2 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

Nice post, however in Tight-shorthanded games AK will hold up unimproved. If you bet and continue to get 3-4 callers with your AK post flop bet, then you must give it up on the turn.

AK is a good hand, played right it becomes a great hand.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

Greedo017

01-31-2005, 01:16 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot

Posts: 1,461

I agree, don't get married to ak. My biggest problem with AK, is i don't even know how much of a moneymaker it is for me right now. I have thought about it a lot lately, and I think playing it aggressively preflop is always good, but if you don't hit postflop, especially low limit, slow down a whole lot. Your aggression isn't fooling anyone, more often than not your aggressive post-flop play will get called and better than 50% of the time you're just throwing your money away. I think i will average more money made on this hand if i am aggressive preflop, but back off a lot if i don't hit post-flop.

I realize this would cause problems at higher limits, because it'd be pretty easy to see i had high cards and i could get pushed out of them pretty easily, but i'm not playing at high limits now am i.

Pocket8s

01-31-2005, 01:29 AM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Michigan

Posts: 7

Great post! I never really thought about it in those terms as in "hoping" to improve with 55 and "expecting" to improve with AK. Big cards don't automatically mean a big hand as I expect a lot of players get trapped into thinking. A guy gets AJ and he's holy shit I've got a monster I'm going all in!" OK not likely but you know what I mean. Just because a face card is a higher "value" card than a number card doesn't mean that any two face cards together are going to hold up. OK I'm rambling now so I'll shut up but great post anyway. I'll be able to think about AK a little more clearly now.

jmontis

01-31-2005, 01:48 AM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 1,296

hell i have NO problem folding a,k offsuit if i dont hit an ace or king on the flop. I'll also have no problem folding to QQ or JJ on flop

ilikeaces86

01-31-2005, 01:49 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 2,141

I also have no problem folding KK if an ace hits

elipsesjeff

01-31-2005, 02:01 AM

#7 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

I also have no problem folding KK if an ace hits

Hehe, man, dont keep that attitude always. Even with that Ace that hits I'm raising most the times.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

01-31-2005, 02:44 AM

#8 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

{This post has been removed}

Khabbi

01-31-2005, 01:42 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 381

Would you think that I played this hand poorly? I tried to stay strong, but got weak towards the end once I figured I had a calling station on my hands...

Game #707276528 - (blinds $0.01/$0.02) No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2005/01/30-22:21:20.3 (CST)
Table "St. Eustatius" (real money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: Ace The King ($2.00 in chips)
Seat 2: CrazyIvan ($1.51 in chips)
Seat 4: Gnome66 ($2.53 in chips)
Seat 5: wrangler04 ($2.27 in chips)
Seat 6: montygram ($1.88 in chips)
Seat 7: AssPunch ($0.64 in chips)
Seat 8: hawgger ($10.51 in chips)
Seat 9: Vt Big Dog ($2.47 in chips)
Seat 10: nottakenname ($1.95 in chips)
Gnome66 : Post Small Blind ($0.01)
wrangler04: Post Big Blind ($0.02)
Ace The King: Post ($0.02)
Dealing...
Dealt to nottakenname [ Ac ]
Dealt to nottakenname [ Kd ]
montygram: Fold
AssPunch: Fold
hawgger : Call ($0.02)
Vt Big Dog: Call ($0.02)
nottakenname: Raise ($0.10)
Ace The King: Call ($0.08)
CrazyIvan: Fold
Gnome66 : Fold
wrangler04: Fold
hawgger : Call ($0.08)
Vt Big Dog: Fold
*** FLOP *** : [ 9s 3h 8s ]
hawgger : Check
nottakenname: Bet ($0.25)
Ace The King: Call ($0.25)
hawgger : Fold
*** TURN *** : [ 9s 3h 8s ] [ 2c ]
nottakenname: Bet ($0.40)
Ace The King: Call ($0.40)
*** RIVER *** : [ 9s 3h 8s 2c ] [ 3d ]
nottakenname: Check
Ace The King: Bet ($1.25)
nottakenname: Call All-in ($1.20)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $3.85 | Rake: $0.20
Board: [ 9s 3h 8s 2c 3d ]
Ace The King bet $2, collected $0.05, net -$1.95 (showed hand) [ 7d Jd ] (a pair of threes)
CrazyIvan didn't bet (folded)
IF-ART-ED didn't bet
Gnome66 lost $0.01 (folded)
wrangler04 lost $0.02 (folded)
montygram didn't bet (folded)
AssPunch didn't bet (folded)
hawgger lost $0.10 (folded)
Vt Big Dog lost $0.02 (folded)
nottakenname bet $1.95, collected $3.85, net +$1.90 (showed hand) [ Ac Kd ] (a pair of threes)

Turns out he was a maniac.

a500lbgorilla

01-31-2005, 03:50 PM

#10 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

No bullshit.

Why did you call the river?

I'm going to assume you didn't want to be bluffed.

If you were going to call 1.25 bet, then bet 1.25.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

01-31-2005, 05:11 PM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,855

That dude wasn't a maniac, he was trying to hit his straight. He missed it.

From that point, he has one of two choices: 1) throw out a big bet and hope you fold, or 2) check and lose the pot.

He may have thought that your check showed weakness (which it kinda did), so he went in for the kill and got burned.

TylerK

01-31-2005, 06:00 PM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME

Posts: 1,791

Bet the pot on the flop. There's 35 cents in the pot if I'm counting right and you only bet 25. That screams "big cards that missed."

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

RiverMonkey

02-01-2005, 10:34 PM Post subject: Re: AKos is misunderstood

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

There seems to be lots of threads out about the pros and cons of AKos. Some feel it's overrated, others feel it's underreated, but in general I find that a number of players just plain misunderstand the power and value of this hand.

.......

Your AK has great "potential to improve", but it NEEDS help. That's right, it is useless without help unless you plan to bet or bluff your way out of trouble.
.......

In the words of Abdul Jalib (a noted poker theorist for those who have not heard of him:

Offsuit hands have "reverse implied odds", since they cannot usually bet and raise with confidence towards the end of the hand. Normally, an offsuit hand likely to be best should make it expensive to see the flop, in order to harm the hands that would have good implied odds to see the flop cheaply. A strong offsuit hand is still strong when facing several opponents, between its chance of making a AKQJT straight, two pair (usually using a low pair on the board) or a top pair that holds up.

This is why I think people who don't think AKo is worth a raise pre-flop are in general wrong. If you are in LP and there a a few limpers or no limpers ... AKo gains value IMO. You cannot comment on the value of a hand without some ambiguity without also understanding the context in which you are making that evaluation.

Also, I don't agree with you equating 55 not hitting trips on the flop to AKo missing the flop. It is simpy just not the same situation. With AKo, you have 6 outs to improve to a decent hand against any current TPTK hands, whereas with 55 you generally only have two outs. However, I agree that there is a valid point behind drawing some analogy. Just be careful to understand the distinctions.

Also, the number of opponents in the hand is a BIG consideration here. AK can hold up unimproved in heads-up situations or where the field has been limited to say 3 or less players.

anarres

02-03-2005, 01:22 PM

#14 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 17

Weird. I ALWAYS bet very heavy with AK pre-flop. Why? So if I am called it is by only 1 person, or possibly 2.

Edit: Obviously I may decline an all-in re-raise before the bets get to me pre-flop, or if I read somone has high pair (often easy to read).

With 1 person you can only be beat pre-flop with a pair, and unless it's AA or KK you are still almost evens.

When I don't bet big (i.e. at least 5xBB, usually 10xBB) people always call, and with > 2 opponents you are likely to lose not just your blind, but that lame weak bet you just made pre-flop.

With TT I tend to dislike it. If overcards come out I invariably fold unless I have reads that tell me I have the best hand...

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:12 PM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

Beginners Circle

AKos is misunderstood

Play for FREE and practice your game at...