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!Luck

04-14-2010, 05:03 AM Post subject: AKo @ 25NL - FR

#1 (permalink)

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Villian is 16/16 with 11% 3 bet over a tiny sample. 32 hands.

My thinking was that though the sample is small he may be doing this with a semi wide range and he "felt" like the type that would gambol here. In another words I am happy to stack off pre against this guy.

Thus folding here doesn't make sense. If I just call I need to hit an A or K cause this guy will be aggressive. Thus, I think my best here is to 4 bet to 6.5 maybe 7.

His 3 bet range could be 77+,ajs+ and I suspect he would stack off with tt+ and AK.

Hmm looking at this it seems like I think I am best calling here keeping his range wide, though it sucks to play an agro opponent out of position is far worse to create a situation where if I 4 bet he calls I miss flop any bet I make commits me and a check lets him steals it. Plus my sample is tiny so meh.

Then again I can let it go and make a better play latter. And if he continues 3 betting me just get up and leave.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($56.75)
MP2 ($25.35)
MP3 ($27.30)
Hero (CO) ($27.25)
Button ($24.25)
SB ($24.75)
BB ($18.90)
UTG ($28)
UTG+1 ($23.65)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

, K

4 folds, MP3 calls $0.25, Hero bets $1, Button raises to $3, 3 folds, hero ???

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surviva316

04-14-2010, 05:09 AM

#2 (permalink)

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good god don't fold!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

caddie444

04-14-2010, 05:48 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Calling 3B's OOP is rarely a good idea. I'd be happy to stack off here vs this guy so 4B to like $7 or $8 to give him the perception that he still has some FE. After that I wouldn't hesitate to find a new table.

Don't complain; Just work harder - Randy Pausch (The Last Lecture)

Micro2Macro

04-14-2010, 06:18 AM

#4 (permalink)

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calling 3bets oop is fine if u can hand read

btw u do realize 11% 3bet means hes 3bet maybe only once so far...so the number is kind of irrelevant

"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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!Luck

04-14-2010, 06:59 AM

#5 (permalink)

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right m2m, which is why i should be more inclined to call here.

In any case, I 4 bet to 6.5 got called flop came J84 two hearts. At this point there where 50BB in the pot he had something like 18.

In the future, I will just call. Since my sample size is way to small for a 3 bet range to merge, hell I have ran 24/24/15 over 50 hands before.

!luck

rpm

04-14-2010, 07:24 AM

#6 (permalink)

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what gives you the impression he's so aggressive or looking to gamble? his stats over the small sample seem pretty in-line for someone shaping up to be a standard TAGG. i think my preferred line here would be 4b/fold. i doubt he has 5bet bluffs in his arsenal if he is indeed 3betting you as light as 77+,AJs (which seems a pretty unusually wide 3bet range to me), i'm guessing he'd only shove QQ+,AK, which you have 40% against and can fold (ie your 4bet doesnt get you so pot committed to have to call). saves having to play a 3bet pot out of position in which you flop ace high 60%ish (i think) of the time, and slightly more if he holds any blockers. 4betting also might make villain get back in his TAGG box and stop 3betting you light, if that is what he's doing.

surviva316

04-14-2010, 07:28 AM

#7 (permalink)

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6.50 doesn't seem nearly big enough OOP, as him calling w 22 isn't a very big mistake (if one at all depending on how he plays it postflop). of course if he responds to this sizing by setmining a bunch and calling too much with AJ/AQ type stuff and spazzing out more often, then it seems like a smaller 4b manipulates his range perfectly for us. however, i find that unknowns at these stakes are much bigger stations to cbets in these spots then we'd need them to be for us to want him to set mine against us (in other words, we'd have to like barrel him off of 66 in this spot). and yes i'm rambling, just spouting everything that comes to my fingertips

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

caddie444

04-14-2010, 08:15 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Didn't notice small sample size.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

calling 3bets oop is fine if u can hand read

Yes this is true of course. You really flat the 3B here M2M? I personally don't think it's a good idea unless villain is 3B'ing Ax hands he's willing to stack off with. I suppose if he has a high c-bet % in 3B pots IP and he's abusing the button it can be very profitable to c/r a lot of flops but without reads I'm either 4B'ing or folding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpm

i think my preferred line here would be 4b/fold. i doubt he has 5bet bluffs in his arsenal if he is indeed 3betting you as light as 77+,AJs (which seems a pretty unusually wide 3bet range to me), i'm guessing he'd only shove QQ+,AK, which you have 40% against and can fold (ie your 4bet doesnt get you so pot committed to have to call).

If we 4B to like $8 and he shoves we will need to call $16.25 to win $49.50, which means if we have %40 equity it is +EV.

Don't complain; Just work harder - Randy Pausch (The Last Lecture)

!Luck

04-14-2010, 08:40 AM

#9 (permalink)

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I tend to 3 bet the smallest amount I can to get the guy to a decision. I don't see a good reason to raise to 8 here. If I did there would something like 16 in the pot with me have 17 left so I would 33% equity which forces me to call. But more importantly, and it is really late at night so sorry if this doesn't make any sense. I can accomplish the same fold % with 6.5 as I can with 8. But then again in this case I said i want to stack of with him so committing with 8 isn't such a problem.

Another thought: What if I just shove. Since there may be a slight difference in fold equity between 6.5 and shove. Though this feels dumb, again I am tired. But if he would call a lot of 4 bets and not pay me off with lets say JJ then shoving may not be so bad since at this point him folding JJ would be a mistake and if he calls I don't feel so bad either since it nearly 50-50.

Man i should not post this late at night.

surviva316

04-14-2010, 09:01 AM

#10 (permalink)

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to say that villain continues with the same range to 6.5 as he does to 8 is absurd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

rpm

04-14-2010, 10:29 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by caddie444

Didn't notice small sample size.

If we 4B to like $8 and he shoves we will need to call $16.25 to win $49.50, which means if we have %40 equity it is +EV.

well spotted, you're right. i take it back, i don't like 4b/folding here very much at all.

jaytoi

04-14-2010, 10:48 AM

#12 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2009

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Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

to say that villain continues with the same range to 6.5 as he does to 8 is absurd.

yeh, he wont feel he can profitably setmine to anything more than a minraise.

Im ready this time.

!Luck

04-14-2010, 03:45 PM

#13 (permalink)

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How can he profitable set mine at 6.5? That's 3.5 to call, even if he stacks me every time he is still slightly -ev.

Donachello

04-14-2010, 04:52 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by !Luck

How can he profitable set mine at 6.5? That's 3.5 to call, even if he stacks me every time he is still slightly -ev.

there's 11.10 in the pot if he calls the 3.5. Effective stacks are 18ish so a total potential win of about 30. So if it's JUST for set odds, technically it is -EV. But for you to make that claim you'd have to specifically put him on like 22-55. But you can't do that can you? He could call with anything from 22+ and even hands like 88 and 99 have great equity vs you on low flops, not to mention his in position ability to steal with the worse PPs and other junk on low flops. 4betting to 6.5 is just so small that I think it barely folds any of his range. as caddie said, 8-9 looks good here. I think with that you can narrow his range a decent amount or even get him to stack off if you want to get it in with AKo.

[00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
[00:30] <DC> daven
[00:30] <DC> on my hand?
[00:30] <daven> yep
[00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
[00:30] <daven> nice reason
[00:30] <daven> no further questions
[00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol

Problem officer...?

d0zer

04-14-2010, 05:53 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

6.50 doesn't seem nearly big enough OOP, as him calling w 22 isn't a very big mistake

Villain 3bet/calling 22 in that spot is pretty terribad imo.

$7 is a fine 4bet size imo. And I would have 4bet here. Despite how much m2m likes playing AK OOP in 3bet pots...I'm not so convinced it's very much fun at all.

Jason

04-14-2010, 06:19 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Here are some general thoughts I consider when playing AK. Against competent villains, I feel like most of your profit comes pre-flop. If villain has TT-QQ and the flop has an ace or king, without meta-game or history, most opponents just aren't going to be willing to shovel a lot more money in unless they bank a set or maybe a sweet draw. I also prefer not to get it all-in pre-flop UNLESS I feel like I'm way ahead of their range and it's against a villain who warrants it. Against a 16/16, I probably wouldn't be thrilled about getting it in PF.

My default line here would probably be to just call since I don't know much about him and check/fold a miss and check/call a king or an ace, but a small 4 bet would be fine pre-flop, too. You are OOP but I think AK is definitely one of the easier hands to play OOP only 100bb's deep.

- Jason

!Luck

04-14-2010, 07:12 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Jason,

What are your thoughts on sizing? Since i have some 4 bet bluffs in my range, but never against this guy in this spot so does it matter that I am trying to be consistent?

-!luck

surviva316

04-14-2010, 07:31 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

Villain 3bet/calling 22 in that spot is pretty terribad imo.

obv 3b/calling is a terrible play by villain and he doesn't even have 22 in his range once he 3b's. my point is that profit in poker comes from our opponents making mistakes. letting him get 8:1 odds to set mine/call with SC's call with J8s, etc. doesn't really allow him to make a BIG mistake. obv, i wouldn't call if i were in that situation with those hands, but for villain to call gives us a slim EV, whereas betting larger (prolly like 7-7.50) makes a call from him more and more terribad with every bb we add.

that's also the reasoning behind M saying calling OOP isn't bad if we can hand read. calling allows him to make the biggest mistake possible vs our hand like stacking off with AQ/AJ as well as, allowing us to POSSIBLY get out of the hand for cheap when we miss vs JJ/QQ, as well as picking up an extra street or two from a cbet from garbagy hands if his range is polarized. of course you HAVE TO BE A GOOD HAND READER, or else WE'RE the ones who are gonna be making big mistakes postflop once the bets start getting big and important.

cliff notes: we hold AK in BUvCO against a villain who shows the potential of being aggressive preflop--just don't fold and we should be rollin' in EV's in this spot. however, we should take the action that allows him to make the biggest mistakes the most often while having us make the smallest mistakes the least often.

obv, i know you already know all this d0zer 'cause you're a better player than i am, but i just thought i'd articulate what i meant by "calling with 22 isn't that big of a mistake for villain if we make our sizing too small"

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

!Luck

04-14-2010, 08:56 PM

#19 (permalink)

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I presume that if I 4 bet to 6.5 get called miss flop this becomes a check fold if I think he would call a C bet with 99s on J83 board? Since the only way I can see betting this board if I think he will fold 22,44,55,66,77,99,tt (But the lower of this shouldn't even be in his range. Plus it really depends if he will stick around with AK here.

Micro2Macro

04-14-2010, 10:17 PM

#20 (permalink)

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FFS YOU CANNOT PROFITABLY SET MINE IN 4BET POTS LIKE WHEN THE FUCK ARE YOU GONNA EVEN GONNA SEE 22 3BETTING YOUR ISO RAISE IP HE JUST WONT EVEN HAVE THESE TYPE OF HANDS TO SET MINE IN HIS RANGE UNLESS HE IS MENTALLY RETARDED LIKE COME ON YOU CAN'T EVEN SET MINE PROFITABLY IN 3BET POTS 100BB DEEP EVER WHAT MAKES ANYONE THINK YOU CAN DO IT IN A 4BET POT 8 TO ONE IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO SET MINING ODDS THINK OF THE TIMES WE RESUCK OUT/STILL HAVE EQUITY POSTFLOP AND WE ARENT FELTING 100% OF THE TIME JUST CUZ WE HAVE A STRONG RANGE YOU NEED LIKE 20 TO 1 AT LEAST TO SET MINE IN MOST SPOTS AND PROLLY EVEN 15 TO 1 VS THE TIGHTEST OF RANGES IF YOU ACTUALLY CONSIDER HOW POSTFLOP WILL PAN OUT

6.50 pre is fine and anything larger seems unnecessary

/rant

edit: if he flats 22 with like 10:1 stack odds he is making the hugest mistake ever and if this is the case our adjustment is going to be super easy once we get TPTK in on flop in a 4bet pot and see him sd a set we are gonna want to play with this player as much as possible. it's like people who flat 55 oop to your 3bet bu vs co, once you see them do this you can just 3bet them CONSTANTLY and amplify their mistake.

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