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Gridlock
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01-29-2006, 10:06 AM
Post subject: AK vs UTG-AI from maniac
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 45
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Ok, its a 100NL-game at Party full of fishes. One player who is a complete maniac has moved-in about 10 times in a row now and is clearly on full tilt. Also there are like two-three other maniacs at the tables occasionally going AI against eachother with hands like A10 and KJ preflop. Im sitting in early position and the above mentioned guy moves all-in from UTG. Im right behind him with AKs. This hand is certainly good enough to call villan with since he has moved in with what seems to be any two for a couple of rounds now.
But I also have to think about the other maniacs. What is my approach with this hand? Villain has only 50$ left in stack and my stack is just above 100$. The other maniacs have stacks similar to my own. So whats my play? Raise to isolate or call to induce action from the other maniacs? Afterwards, I thought about this play for a while and concluded that one play was actually far superior to the other. I would like to hear your opinions about this subject. Please note that you have to give consideration too the special game-situation described in this text.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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While AKs isn't too bad multiway, if you really wanted to continue in this hand, you have to raise. You can beat one person a lot easier than 2 unimproved
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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Seasider
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bangor UK
Posts: 563
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I think you have to raise, probably push. The strength of your cards stems from your read on the maniac. You want to play your 2 cards against his, not other players who may have anything. Of course your position sucks and you'll be taking a chance you are walking into an AA, KK. However the odds are those hands arn't there and hopefully even the other maniacs at the table will note captain sensible has woken up with a push and fold accordingly giving your push some fold equity. Pushing is a calculated risk!
Of course villan will probably flip his 3,6o and catch two more 3's on the flop!
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Call and then call the second AI. The reraising range of the maniac behind you is probably larger than his calling range of your AI.
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SinkRox
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 624
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depends if u want a high varince play, with more gamble, where you can call and induce the other muppets behind you to come along for the ride... or a lessor varience play of re-raising ai to isolate. probly the latter for me.
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Experimenting - 200NL 5max.
"They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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fold
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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I'd reraise all in. You really don't want this to go multiway, and if someone pushes behind you, you have to call anyway, so you might as well be the one pushing. Assuming you have the bankroll to support the swings properly, then go for it. Against this type of maniac, laying down AKs preflop would be criminal.
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ProZachNation
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Over there!
Posts: 801
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Reraise all-in, I dont want this to go multi way
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.
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Gridlock
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 45
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Many solid replies here, and while I understand the arguments for pushing my opinion is that it is a better play to just call the raise. As some have mentioned this is a high-risk/high-variance move, but your expected return is so much higher. Think about it, with AKs you actually WANT more callers (as long as they dont have AA/KK of course, but these will ride with you anyway) because your hand has pot equity multiway and inducing a call in this situation EV+.
There is another argument for going all-in; you will be able to see all the cards, instead of just the flop. This argument is however not valid in this particular case since you will have the right price to draw for your two overs if you miss the flop. This IS a high-variance move, but I am a firm believer in pushing even the smallest edges as long as it is cashgame. Tournament is another issue, but in this case I think it is clear that a call is the superior play. Of course you need a solid bankroll to pull of moves like this, but I think that if you arent rolled enough to exploit even the tiniest edge you should go down and play at stakes were you can afford it.
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Iconoclastic
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 324
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I like your analysis, and there's one area we haven't discussed. Postflop play. Since you're acting before Villain 2, what do you plan to do if you hit or miss? If you push a missed flop, is there a considerable chance Villain 2 will fold on the Flop when they also miss (presumably still being dominated) when they would have called All In preflop, making a case for pushing PF?
Also when you hit, do you think you can get paid off if you push on the Flop if they miss? Or are they Aggressive enough to bet when checked to?
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What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?
A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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easy push
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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If you won't tilt after you lose to Q7...push it reel g00t.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Gridlock
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 45
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Iconoclastic; I think the reason for NOT pushing preflop is that you want to induce action. If you believe you will have the same action wether you push or call I think you can push right away. You brought up some interesting points, but my original analysis really didn't go that far. I just recognized that AKs is a hand that benefits greatly with more callers, even so if they call with high pairs (non-AA,KK) and that alone is reason enough to call instead of raising if that increases the chances of opponent calling.
Chicago_Kid and others who have presented arguments for pushing; I understand your concerns about AKs going multiway, and indead pushing increases your chances of winning the pot! However you will DECREASE your actual value by pushing. You are increasing your expected profit at the price of increased volatility. As I said earlier I believe in maximizing profits in cashgames even if that means larger economical fluctuations. I certainly wont blame those who would prefer to protect their holding and push, but if your goal are to always maximize your profit I would give you the advice to reevaluate that.
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Cash games are about maximizing EV. So, in this context, it's a call.
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Iconoclastic
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 324
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gridlock
Iconoclastic; I think the reason for NOT pushing preflop is that you want to induce action. If you believe you will have the same action wether you push or call I think you can push right away. You brought up some interesting points, but my original analysis really didn't go that far. I just recognized that AKs is a hand that benefits greatly with more callers, even so if they call with high pairs (non-AA,KK) and that alone is reason enough to call instead of raising if that increases the chances of opponent calling.
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I actually used Poker Stove and did the EV calculations between calling and pushing using top 50% of hands for Villain 1 and top 15% for Villain 2 if they call after I call, and top 10% if they call after I push (with the lower frequency of them calling after I push taken into consideration) and the result was slightly in favor of Calling. However that calculation assumed the best possible scenarios regarding the points I brought up earlier about getting paid off Postflop. I really think we need to analyze Postflop situations because there is substantial EV potentially lost Postflop that we would have had by getting them All In preflop.
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What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?
A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.
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Assassin32
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5
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I think your only option is to push. What happens if you call him and three blanks come on the flop and he moves all in? If you just call and the other maniacs limp in then you must hit and Aor a King to win. Since calling the raise consumes half of your stack you might as well shove it all in.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Assassin32
I think your only option is to push. What happens if you call him and three blanks come on the flop and he moves all in? If you just call and the other maniacs limp in then you must hit and Aor a King to win. Since calling the raise consumes half of your stack you might as well shove it all in.
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If flop comes rags and hero checks and villian moves all in, hero has to call getting 4-1 on his money, just right odds to draw to 6 outs. However, the situation becomes a lot more murky when the stacks get deeper. Consider this scenario. Maniac #1 has $50, you and maniac #2 have $150 effectively. Maniac #1 shoves for $50, now it's on you. Say both you and maniac #2 call. Flop comes rags and you check. Now maniac #2 shoves for $100, presumably protecting a small overpair. Now do you call the $100, getting about 2.5-1? Probably not. That's why in this case pushing over maniac #1's raise would be the correct decision, so you eliminate all post-flop play and don't have to worry about what happens if you miss the flop.
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