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AK in a pickle pre flop.

  
 
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tugger
Old 09-13-2009, 02:07 AM     Post subject: AK in a pickle pre flop. #1 (permalink)  
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First hand of a three handed game with two friends, buy in £10, winner takes all. Real cards, not internet.

Blinds 100/200

Stacks - 25000

BU - Dale
SB - Mike
BB - Matt (aka Tugger)

Matt is dealt AKo

Mike posts SB 100
Matt posts BB 200

Dale raises to 600
Mike folds
Matt reraises to 1800
Dale reraises to 4200
Matt ?

Dale is a tight player, he folds flush draws if he's priced out, doesn't get married to hands like AK, he is far from a donk, but he's more than capable of bluffing. Got no proper stats on him, I don't keep a record of our games.

As for trying to get a read, Dale is difficult. I often pass a spliff over, you wouldn't believe how many times I've got a solid read thanks to the way he takes it off me! On this occasion, I was rolling one, so no hope here. I ask him if he wants to bust out first hand. Nothing. I show Mike my hand, and say to him "Wanna see something sick?" and I muck. Mike thinks I'm an idiot.

Dale flips over KK and I'm a happy bunny.

Now, I know I've broken protocol by telling you the result, but it was obvious I folded, or I'd have posted the flop, wouldn't I?

I know on this occasion it was the right fold, but should I be calling? Is this a nitty fold?
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Carroters
Old 09-13-2009, 02:39 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Yeah this is terrible, smoke less weed imo.

 
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cleanup.that
Old 09-13-2009, 07:36 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Its 3 handed, youre ahead a lot. Atleast call
You wanna die? Run on up on that black Seven forty-five.
 
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:03 AM #4 (permalink)  
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it depends on the 3b and 4b frequencies
if you're an aggressive 3bettor and he is countering by 4bing then it's a standard stack-off
if he has never heard of a 4b bluff, then it's probably a fold
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tugger
Old 09-13-2009, 10:57 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
it depends on the 3b and 4b frequencies
if you're an aggressive 3bettor and he is countering by 4bing then it's a standard stack-off
if he has never heard of a 4b bluff, then it's probably a fold
I've never seen him 4b bluff pre flop, but that's not to say he doesn't do it, he might just have gotten away with it previously.

I'd normally enter a pot by raising three handed, but he raised. I don't normally 3bet with a weak holding, though he knows I'm capable of it with average hands, especially three handed. However, the fact it was first hand made a huge difference in my decision, and I imagine his too. I don't think either of us would want to bust out first hand, and be forced to watch a deep stack heads up session. I felt if he had QQ, he'd flat my 3bet, hope I didn't have a bigger pair, and pile on the pressure on a Q or lower flop. I felt he had aces or kings, and because I couldn't decide which one, I felt I could only know I was ahead after the flop if I flop nuts, or trips. In that event, I might as well be holding 45, in fact that would be stronger against aces.

I was happy enough with my read. If I could've nailed kings, I guess I could've had a look at the flop, but he might have had aces. How can I play my hand if I think he has aces or kings? What if I hit a pair, or worse, two pair?


"Yeah this is terrible, smoke less weed imo."

Ha, no chance. I seem to play better when I have a smoke, I play with more patience and I'm more rational. I've not had a smoke for the best part of a week, and my bankroll has dipped dramatically, from $150 to $110. Coincidence? I'll let you decide.
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Old 09-13-2009, 11:03 AM #6 (permalink)  
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if he can't have QQ here that's called a nit because you're only 125BB deep

what happens in more aggressive games is that button opens 50% of hands (just about anything connected or suited), blinds 3b like 10%:
3% of hands they're willing to felt pre always (JJ+,AK)
2-3% of hands are for thin value that will possibly fold to a 4b or sometimes felt anyway (AQ, some KQ/AJ) because button will flat 3bs a lot
4-5% bluffs that have playability when called (65s-T9s, A8s-A2s, 22-55) and sometimes get shoved as a 5b bluff

BU will 4b the aforementioned 3% to call it off, and add 3% of hands like A2o-A9o (so 4b those hands half of the time, and fold the other half) so BU will be 4bing 6% of the time
so holding AK against an aggressive opponent you will shove and get folds half of the time and win a big pot or ship it in as a 40/60 vs. villain's range

you would win a 50K pot 40% of the time, which is 20K on average and make him fold his 4b bluff for 4.2K so your EV in the hand would be -800
but usually bet sizing goes like this: 600->2200->5500
your 3b is smaller than it should be, especially this deep
if the bet sizing would go that way then your EV would be +500 to shove
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tugger
Old 09-13-2009, 12:42 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
you would win a 50K pot 40% of the time, which is 20K on average and make him fold his 4b bluff for 4.2K so your EV in the hand would be -800
but usually bet sizing goes like this: 600->2200->5500
your 3b is smaller than it should be, especially this deep
if the bet sizing would go that way then your EV would be +500 to shove
Thanks for this, I find this incredibly useful.

I wouldn't call Dale hyper-aggressive, he's a TAG, he'll play his strong hands aggressively, and his average hands he'll either flat or fold here. QQ was the only hand I felt he *might* have, but I seriously doubted his willingness to play it so aggressively first hand.

I folded because his range, for me, was simply KK or AA. Even AKs I figured he'd flat.

But yes, I'll make sure I reraise bigger in future in this kind of spot.

Thanks again.
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:21 PM #8 (permalink)  
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if he only raises strong hands that's called a nit
a tag would raise bluffs as well

know the difference, it could save your life!
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tugger
Old 09-13-2009, 02:55 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
if he only raises strong hands that's called a nit
a tag would raise bluffs as well

know the difference, it could save your life!
Nice. That makes me a TAG and him a nit then? I'll raise all premiums, excpet on the rare occasion I limp UTG with aces or kings (yes, I know, it's dangerous), and I'll sometimes raise my suited connectors, even weak loose connectors, like 52s. I rarely raise my small pockets full ring, I'll limp/call and look for the set, and paint I try to mix it up with, just like suited connectors.

I can't remember ever seeing Dale showdown 34s after raising.

I'm going to have to play differently next time I play you lot, though, aren't I? Heh.
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Arjonius
Old 09-13-2009, 04:05 PM #10 (permalink)  
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A TAG isn't going to 4bet bluff very often. T for tight means they have hands when they enter pots. It's certainly possible, although how likely is questionable, that they will 4bet with a somewhat larger range than just AA and KK, but not very many more holdings.
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Old 09-13-2009, 05:29 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tugger
That makes me a TAG and him a nit then? I'll raise all premiums, excpet on the rare occasion I limp UTG with aces or kings (yes, I know, it's dangerous), and I'll sometimes raise my suited connectors, even weak loose connectors, like 52s. I rarely raise my small pockets full ring, I'll limp/call and look for the set, and paint I try to mix it up with, just like suited connectors.
no that doesn't make you tag it makes you bad
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stalkR
Old 09-13-2009, 05:41 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I would call and see the flop atleast since 3 handed and deepstack, If i wouldn't hit atleast A i would fold
But i'm newbie at these things :P

It's just my opinion ^^
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tugger
Old 09-14-2009, 01:50 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
no that doesn't make you tag it makes you bad
Oh well. What's bad then? Daring to raise from time to time with low suited cards? Limping with small pairs?

I'll never enter a pot (full ring) with trash like K8o, 47o, Q2s, A6o... Even KTo is auto muck most times, and JQo, JTo, QTo early pos. It's either strong holdings, or, if I'm bluffing, suited connectors, something that has the potential to hit the flop hard a good % of the time. I don't think that's so bad. I see pros playing this way.

If I'm honest, I don't think I have too many issues pre flop, though you'll no doubt disagree. It's post flop I feel I need to improve fast.
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tugger
Old 09-14-2009, 02:02 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stalkR
I would call and see the flop atleast since 3 handed and deepstack, If i wouldn't hit atleast A i would fold
But i'm newbie at these things :P

It's just my opinion ^^
99% of the time I do call here. I guess this hand is the 1% when I know my AK is in bad shape.

We'll flop the ace, what, one in five times? Something like that. Pot odds aren't there, not even implied odds, he folds KK to A high flop. And if I miss the flop, I'm folding for sure, so the turn and river are irrelevant. I'm a 20% dog at best, if my range is correct, unless I shove, then I'm up to 30%, even if I have him suit dominated with the ace.

Poker Odds-Calculator from FlopTurnRiver.com
Holdem Hi: 100,000 sampled boards
Player 1 (A:club: K:diamond:): win 29.68% lose 69.56% tie 0.76% EV 0.301
Player 2 (K:spade: K:heart:): win 69.56% lose 29.68% tie 0.76% EV 0.699
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Old 09-14-2009, 11:29 PM #15 (permalink)  
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limping KK+, raising with 52s UTG (unless utg = bu ldo)

limp/calling pps is not best either against people who are aware you're doing this
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tugger
Old 09-15-2009, 02:46 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
limping KK+, raising with 52s UTG (unless utg = bu ldo)

limp/calling pps is not best either against people who are aware you're doing this
Hey, I don't raise 52s UTG, I was referring to KK+. I'll raise low suited cards in late pos, not necessarily the button, but certainly not UTG. I muck most hands UTG.

And limping UTG with KK+ is a rarity. If I think I'm surrounded by lunatics, this is when I might limp UTG with KK+

And what else do you suggest I do with 33? Raise? Fold? Limp/fold? I don't always have pps when I limp/call, it might be suited connectors, AQ from early, or AJ, KQ late...
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:52 AM #17 (permalink)  
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limping AQ/AJ/KQ worse is retarded because the hand earns more when it takes down the blinds pre than it does post-flop
and 33 is a raise or fold for me, and in 6 handed games it's always a raise, in FR games it's a fold in the EP

I guess in the micros it will make money because like every hand makes money vs. mouth breathers though
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Chopper
Old 09-15-2009, 06:06 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Mike thinks I'm an idiot.
Mike is not the only one for several reasons.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:31 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Omg the guy who posted above me where are you from i knwo hes out of a movie somewhere but its killing me i really want to know its driving me nuts OMG OMG OMG thats right!!!!! its out of not another teen movie i think


OR not anyway about this post....ummmm yeah so what are we talking about?
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tugger
Old 09-15-2009, 12:17 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Mike thinks I'm an idiot.
Mike is not the only one for several reasons.
Nice. Thanks to those who actually stated their reasons, you are helping me. No thanks to those who just like to insult people.
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tugger
Old 09-15-2009, 12:26 PM #21 (permalink)  
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"limping AQ/AJ/KQ worse is retarded because the hand earns more when it takes down the blinds pre than it does post-flop "

Really? AQ is rarely a limp, but the other two are habitual limps.
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Chopper
Old 09-15-2009, 12:46 PM #22 (permalink)  
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you want something constructive? the earlier post that said "smoke less weed" was constructive.

- Dale is a tight player, he folds flush draws if he's priced out, doesn't get married to hands like AK, he is far from a donk, but he's more than capable of bluffing. Got no proper stats on him, I don't keep a record of our games.

this is a post flop read. you are talking about a preflop situation. very little of your post flop read will help you here.

- As for trying to get a read, Dale is difficult. I often pass a spliff over, you wouldn't believe how many times I've got a solid read thanks to the way he takes it off me! On this occasion, I was rolling one, so no hope here. I ask him if he wants to bust out first hand.

this is beyond stupid, imo. its like depending on your read from a guy licking an oreo....not practical unless you are in the movies. i dont care what you THINK your read is on his taking your "spliff." it's bad. if you are that good at reading people, you wouldnt be asking questions here, you'd be an author.


even more constructive?

- you are 3handed in a winner take all game. folding AK is really dumb. no "read" is this accurate.

- even with AK, if you suspect you are up against a "big pair" (which is about as accurate as you can be), you call and take a flop. take one of your brilliant spliff toking reads and shove him off POST flop when it comes Thi. you said part of your read is that he "wont get married to AK" and "he folds flush draws if priced out." so, your hand does fairly well post flop. if you happen up against KK, you are 25%. if you are up against AA, them's the breaks.

maybe my wording was a bit harsh. i was being cute for the easy joke. however, this was bad for the reasons i listed. i think that was more than several reasons.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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tugger
Old 09-15-2009, 01:31 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Better, chopper, thank you.

Let me tell you something about passing a spliff. You might consider it beyond stupidity, but I don't. First, let's differenciate between internet and face to face. I can't pass a spliff to someone online. Nor would I want to. I can't get any physical read off anyone online.

Now, face to face, psychology is the biggest weapon one can have when it comes to getting a read, especially off someone who you know well. Dale will sit rigid, giving nothing away, he's consciously trying to divert my attention so I can't get a read. When I pass him the spliff, it breaks down his consciousness to an unconscious reaction, and, over time, I've been able to determine how to use his reaction to my advantage. It doesn't work every time, but it does sometimes. If he nervously takes the spilff off me, he's weak, I watch his hand as he takes it.

And a guy licking an oreo... if you know him well enough, watch him do it enough, then you can get a read.

"if you happen up against KK, you are 25%"

And the price is still bad.

"maybe my wording was a bit harsh. i was being cute for the easy joke."

Look, I'd rather you be harsh than vague.
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tugger
Old 09-15-2009, 01:39 PM #24 (permalink)  
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I will point out I do much better face to face than online. I can only imagine it's because I'm not bad a getting physical reads. Online is more about maths and less about reads. Face to face is more about reads and less about maths.
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:43 AM #25 (permalink)  
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 3 handed and you're holding AKo? I would call a push with that in a cash game. You're only a really big dog to AA and KK.
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tugger
Old 09-18-2009, 11:37 AM #26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by StillDeadMoney
3 handed and you're holding AKo? I would call a push with that in a cash game. You're only a really big dog to AA and KK.
I know. That's why I folded. I thought he had one of those hands.

I feel like I'm being told I should ignore my read. You guys talk more about range and less about actual reads. Sure, if I was playing against someone I didn't know, I'd call for sure. But this is a lad I play regularly, a friend of mine who I know well. If I was playing online and couldn't see my opponent, I'd very probably call.

Really, this hand tells me I'm better at face to face poker than online poker.

I think anyone who thinks his opponent has AA or KK, and calls AK to his reraise, is a fool who can't let go of big pre flop hands.
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Old 09-18-2009, 09:12 PM #27 (permalink)  
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 i've never heard of anyone going to hell for folding AKo preflop. blah blah blah blah blah it's 3-handed blah blah blah. how the hell does it matter that it's 3-handed if that's not changing the way that people are playing?!

if it were 3-handed between like iopq, stacks and spenda, then yeah the fact that it's 3-handed would change everything because every friggin' hand would be a blind steal/resteal war and you would have the very top of your range.

but if this were the case then you woulda been remiss to not mention in the op "it was 3-handed so there was a lot of 3b/4b'ing going on"

there's so much retarded reasoning ITT that it's tilting me. this is such such such such such such such an easy spot to figure out what you should do

IMPORTANT PART OF THIS POST:

if villain is either capable of 4b bluffs in 3-handed games or if he is a drooler who is capable of going all in with AQ-, then it's an easy all in. if these conditions don't apply, then villain as AT LEAST JJ+ and it's a wicked easy fold.

just 'cause we got dealt AKo in a 3-handed game doesn't mean that we can start talking like all those gambling degen retards that you hear talk about poker at the casinos and use retarded logic like "how can you fold AK?" it's still all about ranges, and if villain's range is like 15% favorite against us then...........

I'M SO WICKED ANGRY AT EVERYONE WHO POSTED ITT BESIDES IOPQ

(edited to fix the bolding)
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surviva316
Old 09-18-2009, 09:35 PM #28 (permalink)  
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 btw, the table is so passive that op talks about how he limps AQ/KQ/AJ. what the hell do you friggin droolers expect villain to turn over in a 5bet pot?!?!?!?!?! i say that he had the very very bottom of his range
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tugger
Old 09-22-2009, 01:35 PM #29 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
if villain is either capable of 4b bluffs in 3-handed games or if he is a drooler who is capable of going all in with AQ-, then it's an easy all in. if these conditions don't apply, then villain as AT LEAST JJ+ and it's a wicked easy fold.
Yes. Thank you.

Dale, the bastard, got me the other day, I bet my A8 (flop 489) at the flop after he checks, he flats. Turn brings flush draw, he checks, I check. River 8. I bet, he pushes! Bastard! Really? He checked 2pr/set on the turn? With a flush draw? I figure he hit the 8 too, and call. 4's full. Arse. I was annoyed he played his set so friggin weak. What you lot got to say about that then? Should I fold? Is it obvious he has boat? Or is K8s a reasonable hand to put him on? I raised x3 on the button, he was sb, it was 5 handed at the time. No other calls, I had him covered by a distance.
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Old 09-22-2009, 05:20 PM #30 (permalink)  
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i think K8s is as reasonable as 89s. 44 is kind of weakly played, but what are you gonna do? i may have tossed in more on the turn, though, too.

i pay off here 100% of the time. i dont get surprised to see a boat, but the way he sounds like he plays, i about half expect 8X, too.

however, after this hand, and the previous hand, and your read of his play (not his spliff-taking tell), i would start to give hella credit to any big raise he puts in a future pot. that said, sometimes you are just going to get coolered.

make sure you dont miss value on him in thinner spots. he sounds like he calls along, too. when he doesnt raise, you should have him a lot more than he slowplays you.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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tugger
Old 09-22-2009, 06:06 PM #31 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i think K8s is as reasonable as 89s. 44 is kind of weakly played, but what are you gonna do? i may have tossed in more on the turn, though, too.

i pay off here 100% of the time. i dont get surprised to see a boat, but the way he sounds like he plays, i about half expect 8X, too.

however, after this hand, and the previous hand, and your read of his play (not his spliff-taking tell), i would start to give hella credit to any big raise he puts in a future pot. that said, sometimes you are just going to get coolered.

make sure you dont miss value on him in thinner spots. he sounds like he calls along, too. when he doesnt raise, you should have him a lot more than he slowplays you.

I wish I had bet the turn, he said he was c/raising me if I had. I do give the guy a lot of credit when he bets hard, but while he might be nitty, he's far from stupid. He saw me check the turn, so he knows I'm not massively strong, he'll have me on 77, TT+, 8x, 9x or open ender, possibly picking up flush draw... which of course is why he's crazy to check it to me on the turn. If he's holding K8, he's going to think that's ahead on the river, he's only going to worry about A8. It was a tough spot. I took a minute or so to call, I couldn't believe he would play a stronger hand so weak. He surprised me for sure.

He doesn't call along weak, like gutshot, or two overs, unless the price is right. If he's calling along, he's usually hit the flop, and if he's raising, he's usually strong. But he is capable of bluffing, I just haven't yet determined how far he'll go with a bluff.

Same game, around thrid hand in, I pulled off the mother of all bluffs with 23o. Got Russ to finally put down his T off a T55 flop at the river after firing all three streets, c/raising the flop. I'd left myself with a tenth of my stack by the river bet, which unnerved him, as last time I did that I had the goods. I showed my bluff and tightened the hell up with a 50% improvement on my stack. Cheeky.
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Old 09-22-2009, 06:44 PM #32 (permalink)  
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 without reads that he's a calling station, checking behind the turn is fine. river is close, and i can see a fold depending on reads (not tells).

would just like to say that his c/r on the river is oober retarded. if he bet/calls the river he's getting value from SOOO many hands that would otherwise just check behind to get to showdown. and c/shoving gets value from like nothing seeing as how you're even considering a fold with A8 (and you like never check back an overpair on the turn, and A9 better snap fold)
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Old 09-22-2009, 07:40 PM #33 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
Let me tell you something about passing a spliff. You might consider it beyond stupidity, but I don't. First, let's differenciate between internet and face to face. I can't pass a spliff to someone online. Nor would I want to.
This is probably the funniest thing I've ever read on FTR.

That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 09-22-2009, 07:53 PM #34 (permalink)  
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tugger
Old 09-22-2009, 09:09 PM #35 (permalink)  
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tugger
Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
Let me tell you something about passing a spliff. You might consider it beyond stupidity, but I don't. First, let's differenciate between internet and face to face. I can't pass a spliff to someone online. Nor would I want to.
This is probably the funniest thing I've ever read on FTR.
Marvellous. A little out of context, but still, glad it amuses.
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