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SmackinYaUp
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03-02-2005, 05:26 AM
Post subject: AK out of position on blank boards...argh
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
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I get this situation so often its not even funny, I think this is my biggest leak at the moment. I have been able to fold when I am sure i am beat and able to save big money on those plays, but this situation just kills me.
I get AK preflop in the $25NL games, raise it 2-3 bucks depending on situation (I really dont like pocket pairs callin me here)...get one caller who has position on me and get a flop of rags. I try to follow up with another bet of the same size or maybe 2/3 pot and the guy behind me ALWAYS calls. On the turn I used to bet again but that did absolutely nothing so now I check, he bets, and I fold.
It seems that an A or K does not fall often enough to make up for my follow up bets on rags to make up for the lost money whenever I hit nothing.
Everywhere Ive read it says to follow up on my preflop raises no matter what but maybe at my stakes this just doesnt work.
What do you all do in this situation?
Also, when do you limp in with Ax suited? Only in late position with callers, or do you limp no matter what?
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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AK is a terrible hand in NL except for stealing with I suggest you start mucking it and concentrate on pairs and suited connectores on the button.
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SmackinYaUp
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
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No kidding? How about Axs?
Also, in one of your posts you said you have started limping with JJ, were you serious or bullshitting? That is so against everything ive heard everywhere..but then again if I treated it like every other pocket pair I would probably save my ass out of a lot of trouble and unfavorable flops.
Lately, ive been coming closer to the idea of NL consisting of me being a 12 tabler monkey. Nobody reads me at my stakes.
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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ok seriously get on IRC right now Ill give ya my 2 cents
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
AK is a terrible hand in NL except for stealing with I suggest you start mucking it and concentrate on pairs and suited connectores on the button.
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...
Not sure my sarcasm detector is sensitive enough for this post...
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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no sarcasm
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
no sarcasm
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Then you're talking nonsense.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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SmackinYaUp
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
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I really wish I could get on IRC but I have never been able to figure out how to get around my damn router. Have any other options?
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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check your Pms
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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I'd love to get a glimpse at that pm. I'd never have dreamed of mucking AK...currently it's one of my most profitable hands.
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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you think Im crazy but I kid you not
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redih
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Cumberland, Maryland
Posts: 53
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I think AK = a great hand because you see so many people playing A with bad kickers and they can never get away from it. Remember he's playing 25NL.
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Trust your parachute.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Redi may have a very good point. The success I've seen with it has been at NL25 and NL50 tables. Perhaps the way to play here is vastly different even to this extent for starting hands.
I'll also note that a preflop raise of $3 at a NL25 table is pretty huge. More than 10xbb. If it works for you, go for it, but to me that's going to build the pot past the point of cheaply scaring people off when you miss. If you get two or more callers (which will be strange unless you've given off the impression that this size of a raise should be called...showing down bad hands with it or not raising as high when you do want a caller on a hand like AA) then the pot is probably $10 already. It's going to cost you another $6.75 to raise anywhere near enough to run them off if they called preflop. There will be times they stick around and you have to do the check/fold thing. Raising this much then gets pretty expensive.
My standard raise at NL25 (.10/.25 blinds) is to 0.95. I could see as high as 1.50 or so, but more than that is huge. Getting people that call raises of $3 with hands that don't destroy you indicates to me that you're getting no table respect. If this is the case, you're not going to be able to bluff people out, ever. Play tighter and only raise when you have the hand (TPGK or better on the flop).
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Spandrel
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 37
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I tend to think some players do have a tendency to overvalue this starting hand, and have trouble getting away from it later, even when it is clear that it is beaten by a lower hand. Against strong, "betting" hands, AKo is only 65% to win, and while that is very good, a lot of players have trouble forgetting that 1 time in 3, it is going to get outdrawn. Skilled players are much better at getting this hand to pay off post-flop (much more skilled than I).
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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you said you raised huge to get rid of pocket pairs, but i would think that the only people calling you would have pocket pairs, hoping to bust your AK.
ChezJ
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whileone
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 306
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I raise four times the big blind. I raise everything four times the big blind. I make a continuation bet, about 3/4 the size of the pot independant of my cards. If i get called, and i have something worth showing down, I keep betting. otherwise, it's just check n fold.
Of course, it's highly situational. Does this guy call everything? does he have a huge stack because he's skeptical of bluffers? will he fold on the river?
i've taken down a few big pots against scary stacks by just betting and betting and betting. usually they wuss out by the river, as long as you havent gone all in. sometimes a random all in can save the hand as well. like a 10 on the turn, maybe you could push.
Then again, maybe you're just getting nervous because AK hasn't hit a pair for you in a while. The'll come.
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Noooooooooooooooo!!
--Darth Vader
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FlyingSaucy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Watching the kids
Posts: 1,603
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lol. Learn how to play AK then ilikeaces. That is an extremely rare preflop fold. It should be profitable, not sure. I'd like to hear the reasoning.
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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Ilikeaces has been saying that its not a very deceptive hand, and pocket pairs and suited connecters are very deceptive hands. In the higher limits, i can sort of see what he's saying, in that any player who has any brains will know what you have and not give you money, but in NL25 you don't play against thinking players, you usually don't need to deceive players cause they are deceiving themselves enough as it is.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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One idea I had about A-K that I think is worth noting is that this hand may allow you to effectively represent aces or kings. The fact that you have an ace and a king in your hand means it's unlikely that an opponent has pocket aces or pocket kings, so if you reraise with this hand preflop, then raise big on the flop after missing, you may be able to get an intelligent opponent to fold an overpair, and if not, you may hit an ace or king on the turn or river to kill your opponents pair anyways. I'm not advising actually doing this, but it's an interesting theoretical point, nonetheless.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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after reading SS2 it made me realize, i do prefer getting AK over AA or KK, even though you miss the flop more often, you'll lose less, which in turn earns you money.
Think about how many pots you've been sucked out on with AA/KK and you just couldn't get away from, AK is an easy fold, while AA and KK are very hard to fold.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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I strongly disagree about the strength of AQ/AJ and beyond type hands, unless they are suited, because even if you catch top pair/top 2 pair, one more broadway card can put you in serious danger.
ill only bet heavy with AQ/AJ when its a perfect A72 rainbow flop, otherwise you'll strangle yourself by trying to fight flush chasers and boardwalk chasers in microlimit games.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmontis
Think about how many pots you've been sucked out on with AA/KK and you just couldn't get away from, AK is an easy fold, while AA and KK are very hard to fold.
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You so silly.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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ya, maybe im wrong but value betting AK doesn't seem like the best thing
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TopThis
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 34
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The power of AK is that it is rarely dominated (only AA and KK), and often dominates hands people will stay in with AQ, KQ, AJ.
The problem is in how you play it. If you're taking AK vs a lower PP, you're going to be behind after the flop in most cases. If you don't have the stones to toss out an information bet, or you're too easy to read...don't blame the hand.
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FlyingSaucy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Watching the kids
Posts: 1,603
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No. AK is dominated by anyone with a pocket pair, or anyone that hits a pair on the flop.
There is no problem with AK, only with people that don't know when to let it go.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
No. AK is dominated by anyone with a pocket pair, or anyone that hits a pair on the flop.
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That's not what "dominated" means. If a hand is dominated, one or both of the cards in the hand are no good. AK is dominated by KK because he can only hit his A to win, for example. Another example: though it is pretty far behind preflop, 65 is NOT dominated by AK.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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FlyingSaucy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Watching the kids
Posts: 1,603
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Ah yes. My mistake. So what I meant was that any pocket pair has you beat preflop.
And post flop, if you don't hit a pair you've got to be careful.
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