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AK and lost control of the pot

  
 
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Anosmic
Old 05-16-2006, 07:45 AM     Post subject: AK and lost control of the pot #1 (permalink)  
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From this morning's game. I'll just outline what happened, won't bring up my questions (or results) straight away.

MP is loose, but based only on a dozen hands.

$10NL on Titan Poker. Full-ring, 8-players

Hero in CO :As: :Kc:

2 fold, MP1 raises to $0.20, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.0,
4 fold, MP calls.

Flop: :Th: :Kd: (Pot: $2.15)

MP checks. Hero bets $1. MP calls.

Turn: :Ac: (Pot: $4.15)

MP checks. Hero bets $2, MP raises $4. Hero calls.

River: (Pot: $12.15)

MP raises $8.15 and is all-in
Hero calls $7.15 and is all-in

Final pot. $26.45
Blah blah Op Blah blah

Faith in Jesus Christ is +EV. That is all.
 
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Myke
Old 05-16-2006, 11:39 AM #2 (permalink)  

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I'd bet more on the flop and probably 3-bet the turn. I can't put him on 44, TT or QJ enough to push me off this hand. That or I'm just not skilled enough to read villian's seemingly spastic play.
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jackvance
Old 05-16-2006, 12:03 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 This is 44, TT or QJ.
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yorib
Old 05-16-2006, 12:48 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Danger Will Robinson. Danger Will Robinson. I've seen hands like this go both ways. (AT vs. QJ). If villian had 44/TT they'd have c/r the flop, not the turn. There's an outside chance (like 5% that villian has AQ) that the villian thinks you're bluffing.

Tough decision. C/R + push = bluff or monster. Does he consider 2 pair a monster? If he did, I'd call. As played, w/o reads I'd have to fold. People, at those levels, will play any two "face" cards. Many, many times I say, "The only thing he could possibly beat me with is a straight and he'd need KT/QT/KJ". Lo and behold he has those two cards to pull the A high straight.
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Seasider
Old 05-16-2006, 12:52 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Looks like he check raised his monster and then wasn't letting you check behind on the river. I'd bet more than I raised pf on the flop as this looks very weak it would also set up a larger bet on the turn. As he only min raises to $4 on the turn i'd probably call looking for an A or K on the river and fold to his all in if I missed.

The only other line that makes sense to me is he holds A10, but is he pushing this at you on the river? I'd want to play a few more hands with him before I called I think.

I don't know if i'd trust a read on someone as loose after 12 hands, it's easy to get a very hot run over a spell like that.

Disclaimer: I have decided I play AK and to a lesser extent 2 pair very badly so may be overly cautious with them at the moment.
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biondino
Old 05-16-2006, 12:55 PM #6 (permalink)  
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It's got to be QJ, it just has to be. AT second, KT thid, TT fourth.
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jackvance
Old 05-16-2006, 01:31 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorib
If villian had 44/TT they'd have c/r the flop, not the turn.
I disagree. People will often stretch this out to the turn or even the river before they announce their hand strength when you are betting.
Quote:
Looks like he check raised his monster and then wasn't letting you check behind on the river.
Yep. Being OOP made him display his hand strength
Quote:
I don't know if i'd trust a read on someone as loose after 12 hands, it's easy to get a very hot run over a spell like that.
Agreed. Sometimes I think a guy is playing back at me for being Lagg.. but usually it's just a typical nit on a hot run of cards.
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chardrian
Old 05-16-2006, 02:36 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I guess this is why I don't play NL, because there is no fricking way I could fold that hand. Yes I see that JQ, or a set are beating me, but top two pair on this board... no way do I fold that. I grab my ankles, smile, and call.
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Rondavu
Old 05-16-2006, 02:51 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chardrian
I guess this is why I don't play NL, because there is no fricking way I could fold that hand. Yes I see that JQ, or a set are beating me, but top two pair on this board... no way do I fold that. I grab my ankles, smile, and call.
Lol, this is a perfect example of a pot control type of spot. The flop is rainbow, so the only chaser is the straight chaser. The turn A is actually a bad card for hero. Hero needs to check the turn (That's why it's called a check), and allow the Villain to price him into showdown.

If you check the turn the Villain with a straight or set most likely spins into value bet mode thinking you're afraid of the ace and won't pay off his better hand. You lose slightly less to the better hand this way, and gain more from dog hand bluffs you invite into the equation

Sometimes my responses may seem weak tight, but if you're playing the game properly, some spots are weak tight, especially against aggressive opponents. In the long run, when a plausable scare card hits a later street, you need to buffer yourself by encouraging worse hands to hang around and try to bluff you or call a later bet, while paying better hands less $$.

I think you rarely fold before showing down in this spot, but that's beside the point isn't it? Cash game is all about long term value any way you can get it.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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jackvance
Old 05-16-2006, 03:03 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
If you check the turn the Villain with a straight or set most likely spins into value bet mode thinking you're afraid of the ace and won't pay off his better hand. You lose slightly less to the better hand this way, and gain more from dog hand bluffs you invite into the equation

Sometimes my responses may seem weak tight, but if you're playing the game properly, some spots are weak tight, especially against aggressive opponents.
Amen. Thinking that you for some reason always have to be aggressive (raise or fold!) is a money leak. Different situations require different approaches.
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yorib
Old 05-16-2006, 03:04 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Jack: We can agree to disagree, craftier players may (and do) act as you've suggested, but poorer players just announce their hand as soon as they hit it.

Anosmic: Here's the (almost) exact same hand. (I've deleted the results, but will post them later).

I have absolutely no notes on the Villian, neither him nor I have been involved in any interesting hands at this table. He didn't seem to be involved in too many hands (nor had I) I hadn't seen him do this. It's strange that I would just call his c/r (weak c/r too) and be willing to call an AI on the river. The only hand he would have that ever crossed my mind was a straight, but that made no sense. (And I thought, if he has it I'll pay him.)

Game #1475449949 - (blinds $0.05/$0.10) No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2006/05/15-19:49:27.5 (CST)
Table "Anatahan" (real money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Seat 1: StevenBasler ($6.80 in chips)
Seat 2: NiceNNaughty ($3.70 in chips)
Seat 3: 42N81 ($30.60 in chips)
Seat 4: Pilermo ($11.80 in chips)
Seat 7: superanders ($10.25 in chips)
Seat 8: golfer2222 ($10.40 in chips)
Seat 9: yorib ($11.15 in chips)
Seat 10: udlipniscm ($11.35 in chips)
StevenBasler: Post Small Blind ($0.05)
NiceNNaughty: Post Big Blind ($0.10)
Dealing...
Dealt to yorib [ Ac ]
Dealt to yorib [ Kc ]
42N81 : Call ($0.10)
Pilermo : Fold
superanders: Fold
golfer2222: Call ($0.10)
yorib : Raise ($0.50)
udlipniscm: Fold
StevenBasler: Fold
NiceNNaughty: Fold
42N81 : Fold
golfer2222: Call ($0.40)
*** FLOP *** : [ Kh Ad 6s ]
golfer2222: Check
yorib : Bet ($0.70)
golfer2222: Call ($0.70)
*** TURN *** : [ Kh Ad 6s ] [ 8h ]
golfer2222: Check
yorib : Bet ($1.10)
golfer2222: Raise ($2.20)
yorib : Call ($1.10)
*** RIVER *** : [ Kh Ad 6s 8h ] [ 4d ]
golfer2222: Bet ($7)
yorib : Call ($7)
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jackvance
Old 05-16-2006, 03:07 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorib
Jack: We can agree to disagree, craftier players may (and do) act as you've suggested, but poorer players just announce their hand as soon as they hit it.
I guess we can agree to disagree, but I see total fish play it that way daily on unibet..
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Rondavu
Old 05-16-2006, 03:26 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I wanted to show some crude math...

Say this hand happens 20 Times. Let's assume you're willing to destack every time.

You bet the turn...

5 Times opponent has QJ and stacks you
3 Times opponent has a set and stacks you

12 times opponent has a worse hand
Out of those 12 times, 9 times opponent folds to a turn bet, and the other 3 times opponent folds to your river push.

Now let's assume you check the turn...

5 Times opponent has QJ and stacks you
3 Times opponent has a set and stacks you

12 times opponent has a worse hand
Out of those 12 times, 8 times opponent checks behind. Out of those 8 times opponent calls a smallish river value bet 4 of them. 4 Times the opponent bets into you with a worse hand, and 2 of those times the opponent destacks on a river bluff push.

See where I'm going? The math is horrible I know, but the point is made. You get way more value from the dogs by checking that turn, because the range of hands hanging around on that board the way it came out is weighted heavily in favor of hands that beat you unless you let them take control.

When your good action turns bad, keep the good action around longer.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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crushednuts
Old 05-16-2006, 03:31 PM #14 (permalink)  
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9 times out of 10 that min raise on the turn means he hit is straight. I just don't see a set here but its def possible. I agree that a turn check is the best play and call a bet hoping to fill up. If he gives you good odds on the river I would just sigh and make the crying call. A board w/ all those high cards is always very dangerous and being super agressive w/ Two pair and lower is a great way to go broke. This is where NL and limit poker differ greatly. Making an $8 crying call is a huge leak in your game. In limit, you just have to call 1 big bet in a pot which contains 9 or more big bets. As I said before i think he is about 9 to 1 to have the straight so in limit you are getting odds to call that one last big bet. Most of the time players in this spot have a monster and will blow your two pair into next Sunday but in limit you have to suck it in and make the call. In No limit you will bleed chips if you make these calls every time..
Sometimes the nuts just get crushed

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Anosmic
Old 05-17-2006, 06:09 AM #15 (permalink)  
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It's a tricky one.

I don't believe in 44, TT because of the his pf play. QJ is a distinct possibility (he re-raised in SB with KJo earlier).

AA and KK seem unlikely with the flat call of my re-raise. (I know a read off a dozen hands... risky).

My thinking was that he woke up with the turn; so either he paired something, hit his straight or he put me on a K and thought this was my scare card.

I think he'd actually be more likely to flat call my bet with his straight. Normally I respect C/R, but here it smellt wrong.

My guess would be AT, came in with middle pair and has now hit second pair. Which is great for me.

Here I don't like my call on the turn. Although the chance of making the boat and breathing easier is tempting. Trouble is it's hard to re-raise without effectively committing to an all-in.

When Villain turned over
:Ah: you just have to chuckle and move on.
Blah blah Op Blah blah

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jackvance
Old 05-17-2006, 06:18 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 I can seriously say I've never seen this before at unibet 10NL lol.. good stuff, he totally had me fooled.
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Thee One
Old 05-17-2006, 06:56 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quite honestly, I don't know what he has but my rule is to push with Top 2 pair because too many people play TPNK like it's the nuts. If he had a set or straight...well that's poker. But in this specific case, I push the turn and let the chips fall where they may. He could have me beat, but I'm not trying to outguess the school playing at the microstakes.
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LimpinAintEZ
Old 05-17-2006, 07:15 PM #18 (permalink)  
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When Villain turned over
:Ah: you just have to chuckle and move on.[/quote]

this is exactly the problem with these Low Limit NL Games - Players there overvalue their hands drastically - Crushed nuts says something along the lines of 9 times they have the straight - Not in NL low limit - I really enjoy reading the thought processes you guys write out but I think we are giving these players WAY too much credit - I pay this off 80% of the time, if they have a straight - The times I don't pay it off is when i'm up against a good player when I've been diong all the betting (telling my hand) and then get raised on turn or river - That is a good tell - again, the player has to be good though - most of the time i'm paying it off there...Because the A,7 he flips over is what I see them flip over most of the time
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