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AK Folding top pair to aggression? I got outplayed....

  
 
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Borax
Old 05-24-2005, 12:09 PM     Post subject: AK Folding top pair to aggression? I got outplayed.... #1 (permalink)  
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I got outplayed by a player rated by PT as Loose-aggressive-passive. He dominated the table totally and made his 50$ grow to about 350$ before he left. I had a good read on him and tried to trap him a couple of times, but ended up splitting pots with him both times...after going all in for a KJ straight. Then this hand came up and being a bit distracted (talking to my girlfriend...) I folded a winning hand here.

Then after my session I looked at the hand in PT and this thought came up: How should I have played this hand with a very possible KQ two pair on the flop He is check-raising me and this could also be a semibluff for a straight or flush draw I guess, so I probably should have reraised the flop - given that the T scared me even more? Then what if he reraised again He could be holding QQ for all I know. Still I think given my read that I should have taken 15 seconds to think and then reraised hard on the flop...Any feedback would be very welcome.

0.25/0.5$ NL 10 players
Read on player UTG: Loose-aggressive-passive (PT). Calls many preflop raises and bet very aggressive when he get something, folds before the river if in trouble. Bluffing, trapping and semibluffing with great skill. Very dangerous player!

Dealt to Borax

------------------
OpeningBetRound
------------------
SB : Posts small blind 0.25
BB : Posts big blind 0.50
UTG : Calls for 0.50
UTG+1 : Calls for 0.50
MP1 : Calls for 0.50
MP2 : Folds
Borax : Raises for 3.00
CO : Folds
Button: Folds
SB : Folds
BB : Folds
UTG : Calls for 2.50
UTG+1 : Folds
X : Sitting out
MP1 : Folds
------------------
Flop

------------------
UTG : Checks
Borax : Bets 7.00
UTG : Raises for 14.00
Borax : Calls for 7.00
------------------
Turn

------------------
UTG : Bets 10.00
Borax : Folds
UTG : Shows cards
------------------
Result
------------------
UTG Showed Cards (Winning) 44.00
Borax Mucked Cards
------------------
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sinky
Old 05-24-2005, 01:29 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Looking at the hand in isolation I would expect that he has top pair beat.

However the additional information you have provided about you opponents style of play suggests that he could have anything. You have isolated the LAGG and have hit TPTK on the flop. Time to be aggressive and re-raise the flop (as you suggested).

Having called the flop, you folded to a $10 bet ($35 pot) on the turn. What were your thoughts at this point ? Did you think he was trapping you ?
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journey075
Old 05-24-2005, 01:38 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinky
Looking at the hand in isolation I would expect that he has top pair beat.
fully agree.
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Borax
Old 05-24-2005, 01:42 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Well, my thoughts were actually split between the screen and a discussion with my girlfriend...

But seriously - yes, I smelled a trap after seeing him making similar traps several times. He wouldn't raise big hands, then in with a raise on the flop, then show weakness and then take your stack. With a little more focus I would have taken my chances and raised the flop and then pushed the turn I think. 10$ turn bet isn't that much but it was 1/3 of my remaining stack, and a call or a reraise would commit me. But damn, I had too much respect for this guy - who was very unpredictable. He also had the stack to back up his aggressiveness and would reraise a second time with great confidence and no hesitation on flops.

The reason for my post is partly that KQ in a flop can be dangerous, since people will call with KQ to my preflop raise. So I'm not sure how to handle a check raise in that situation. Is a reraise the best idea in general?
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homerdash
Old 05-24-2005, 03:12 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Push that flop since you'll be pot committed anyways if you rereraise and make a bet on the turn. Yes, if he has KQ then you're going to need help. But if he was trapping consistently with big hands then I don't see why he'd reraise on the flop. I'd probably expect a smooth call on the flop and a decent-sized bet on the turn. The minimum reraise looks weak considering his stack size. If TPTK with AK isn't good enough for you, why even play the hand in the first place?

You either want to take it down right there or force the opponent to make the hard decision. I can definitely understand the ten on the turn being very scary, which is why you need to figure out where you are on the flop.

But then again, maybe you would've played a bit different with total concentration.
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biondino
Old 05-24-2005, 03:28 PM #6 (permalink)  
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The kind of players I play against ($15/$25 tables) would 90% of the time had KQ if they made that post-flop bet, 5% of the time K5, 5% of the time 27o. So maybe I'm not in a position to question this!

However - his bet after the turn is the key here, I think. He's already been happy to go to $7, and that's when you were setting the pace - why only $10 if he's got a straight, or even if he has KQ and is therefore looking even less vulnerable?

I'd probably have gone all in after his $10 bet, for the above reason - it just smells of scare tactics rather than real strength. That is, of course, if I'd stayed in, which is doubtful after his raise to the flop - if he was so unpredictable and talented, maybe I'd have just cut my losses.
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journey075
Old 05-24-2005, 03:44 PM #7 (permalink)  
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i think its good you got away from the hand. i would have too. i dont like the call on the flop though. either push or fold. none of this semi 'my hands pretty good but unless i hit an A or K on the river, the pots yours' bullshit.

i wouldve folded to his raise and that woulda been the end of that. you showed you can lay down good hands and thats important. youre not really trying to judge this play based on the cards, but rather his table image. if you called him down and he shows KQ youll think youre an idiot. he projected a loose table image and you think 'theres no way he has me beat.' try not to call ppl based on a loose table image. loose players can get cards too.

calling him based on a read is a different story.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 05-24-2005, 05:05 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by journey075
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinky
Looking at the hand in isolation I would expect that he has top pair beat.
fully agree.
Yup. If you arn't going to pay attention to him instead of talking to your girlfriend, you should probably find an easier table. No sense sitting at a table with fractured focus and an opponent who has you completely confused.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Borax
Old 05-24-2005, 05:16 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Some good point here. My call on the flop is bad play I aggree to a raise or a fold. About the table - it was a great table, because the others could be scared easily as long as I avoided this guy. I don't mind one difficult player with a big stack as long as the rest of the table suits my play
An you must aggree he played the hand vey well, didn't he?

I am working on two major things in my game now. First to be better at folding good hands when I should. Second to step up my aggressiveness. I have increased my PFR recently to 6-8 in some sessions (average 4.95), but although I take more small pots it seems to get me into more trouble as well. So I've been like a jojo between +1200 and +1450 in total winnings for a while now. Finally I've ordered a couple of books as well to get one step further.
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Borax
Old 05-25-2005, 11:58 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Similar situation yesterday and it seems like I learned something from this post

I'm dealt JJ
I bet 4xBB and get two callers
Flop comes 985
One caller bets 5$ into the 6.50$ pot the other guy folded
I raised him another 5 to 10$ and he moved all in for 40$
I had 30$ left in my stack

Read: Tight solid player who had been folding to reraises on flop at least three time earlier. Playing safe, almost a rock.
Analysis: He could be holding TT, putting me on AK and protecting his top pair. He could also just as well be holding 55, 88 or 99 and given his style this is what I put him on here. 67 for a straight is possible, but he wasn't the type to call a preflop raise with it. Same goes for 98 two pair. I have top pair and I had to think about the TT possibility for a while but I decided that he had hit a set and:

I folded and he mucked his hand.

Any comments to my play here
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journey075
Old 05-25-2005, 02:06 PM #11 (permalink)  
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journey075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borax
Similar situation yesterday and it seems like I learned something from this post

I'm dealt JJ
I bet 4xBB and get two callers
Flop comes 985
One caller bets 5$ into the 6.50$ pot the other guy folded
I raised him another 5 to 10$ and he moved all in for 40$
I had 30$ left in my stack

Read: Tight solid player who had been folding to reraises on flop at least three time earlier. Playing safe, almost a rock.
Analysis: He could be holding TT, putting me on AK and protecting his top pair. He could also just as well be holding 55, 88 or 99 and given his style this is what I put him on here. 67 for a straight is possible, but he wasn't the type to call a preflop raise with it. Same goes for 98 two pair. I have top pair and I had to think about the TT possibility for a while but I decided that he had hit a set and:

I folded and he mucked his hand.

Any comments to my play here
would A9 make that play? good fold. i think you played it perfectly. raise the flop for information, i sense youre beat. i put him on the set or QQ from your read. looks like he waited for the flop to make his move anyway. he either hit his set or always had you beat with QQ and didnt want to commit himself with a chance of overcards on the flop. thats based on your analysis of him as a rock though.
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Borax
Old 05-25-2005, 02:24 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
would A9 make that play? good fold.
Yes I forgot about A9 which is also possible and would play like TT, but I'm not sure he would have called a preflop raise with A9, given his tight style. Stomach feeling still says 88, 99 or TT and it felt wrong to push in a call with my pair here. In fact he could also hold QQ although I think he would have raised me preflop then.

A bit later in the session he played a very similar hand with two other players involved. Same bet size on the flop, but he got called on the flop instead of reraised and took a nice pot with 999 against a straight chasing KQ (flop T9x rainbow) and QQ. This hand made me pretty sure my JJ fold had been good. But you never know...

JJ is difficult to play I think. I tend to play it with more aggression than before, but still I play it like a smaller pocket pair quite often. Depends on the table and position.
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journey075
Old 05-25-2005, 03:27 PM #13 (permalink)  
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journey075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borax
Quote:
would A9 make that play? good fold.
JJ is difficult to play I think. I tend to play it with more aggression than before, but still I play it like a smaller pocket pair quite often. Depends on the table and position.

yeah, one day i was playing and i was down $400 on TT alone (TT/JJ are the same thing to me) over 10 hands. ive greatly decreased my aggression on those hands and now play 8s-Js the same.
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