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Lukie
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04-13-2006, 05:22 PM
Post subject: AK AQ and stuff whaaaaaaaaat
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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So I was going through my database of 65k hands from my new place, and found something pretty astonishing. First though, I'm just going to refer to these as 9 handed games, but since pokertracker actually uses (# off the button), UTG in an 8-handed game is identical to UTG+1 in a 9-handed game. I know the sample size is very small (consider only 2800 hands UTG, and 4900 hands UTG+1), but still...
UTG: AKo, AQs, AQo, AJs are all in the red.
UTG+1: AKs, AKo, AQs, AQo are all in the red.
Weird. I think I overplay top pair too much at times, make weak folds in others, and c-bet too often OOP. Just thought I'd share. If this thread never gets responded to, I won't be offended. I also think I'm too predictable (ie basically giving up when my first move is check after I raise preflop, for one example).
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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After 8.5K hands at 200NL (I know this is a small sample), AQo is one of my biggest winners. This is kind of amusing because I despise that hand. UTG and UTG+1 I dump AQo. Any later, and I 3x it. If there are a lot of limpers and I'm in LP/Button I 5x it. If I happened to get called I can cbet, repping a big pair and this usually is enough to take down the pot. If I get called, I just shutdown. If there are a lot of limpers and I'm in the SB, or BB, I just complete/check. I also can get away from top pair and I'm not gonna get stacked with it.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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65k is nothing.
in my last 30k, 87s wins the third most for me per hand.
also, consider if you are playing these hands utg and they are close to 0 EV for you, then dont stop playing them because you will get more action when you have a big pair. if two lines for the same hand are both about neutral EV, then take the more aggressive one.
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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gotta learn to let go of top pair when they play back at you at times. depends on the player. if the rock/tag raises you bet on a flop of A47 rainbow. AK is no good. muck it quick. if a lag does it you might want to push. top pair kicker is nothing in nl bro and i think that is why you are losing with these hands. you over play them. also, remember not to bet too strong with the tptk because it will commit you when they are slowplaying something that dominates you.
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im good at poker
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
gotta learn to let go of top pair when they play back at you at times. depends on the player. if the rock/tag raises you bet on a flop of A47 rainbow. AK is no good. muck it quick. if a lag does it you might want to push. top pair kicker is nothing in nl bro and i think that is why you are losing with these hands. you over play them. also, remember not to bet too strong with the tptk because it will commit you when they are slowplaying something that dominates you.
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This is golden advice Lukie. See if you took time to learn this you would win at poker.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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I don't think this is sample size. We have a wide range of similar hands over 2 similar positions all in the red.
I've had similar observations. I think the problem is that you have the exact hand everyone is putting you on.
I'd love to hear what Pirate has to say about EP in games like this. Although that might be TMI.
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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also i can't help but say. WTF DO YOU WIN WITH THEN??? LOLOL
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im good at poker
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
also i can't help but say. WTF DO YOU WIN WITH THEN??? LOLOL
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Any 2 cards in position.
Limp, raise, fold, (sometimes call), call
check, check, bet, fold, fold.
It's a fucking ATM machine in that game.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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lukie, how much are you down with those hands in terms of bb/hand
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigboy5540
also i can't help but say. WTF DO YOU WIN WITH THEN??? LOLOL
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Heh, the more I look at shit, the more I realize I win with position. I'm running at +8.5ptbb/100 though over my last 10k hands so I'm doing alright...
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
lukie, how much are you down with those hands in terms of bb/hand
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Well these are sample sizes of only a few thousand hands in each position. A lot are in the area of around (.50BB)/hand, but we're talking maybe a couple dozen occurances each, so bleh. The thing is, in the past, I've really only used pokertracker so I can use pokerace and get stats on other players, but even after only toying around with this for 20 minutes or so, it's REALLY a powerful tool.
Also, there was a thread recently on 2p2 about somebody's AKo being a breakevenish hand in EP at full-ring. I kinda figured it would be a big winner even from EP at NL100. The more I think about it though, it's not like NL25 where people would be playing big pots with TPNK. Such things seem to be rare. When I play big pots with AK, I'm usually not getting the best of it.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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And to be honest I know people are going to come on here and give the obvious, don't overplay AK, but I'm very cognizant of that, and if I do (and I very well may), I'm not blatantly terrible about it. When I'm in EP, I rarely get stacked with AK TPTK. Aces or Kings on the other hand............
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
The more I think about it though, it's not like NL25 where people would be playing big pots with TPNK. Such things seem to be rare. When I play big pots with AK, I'm usually not getting the best of it.
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...and when they do they're drawing very live against your pair.
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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look at your WSD% on these hands in PT. I believe the rule is that anything over 33% and you're overplaying them. Around 17% is a good # to be at. Don't be surprised to see AA and KK there as well. This was a huge leak that I fixed in my own game.
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