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AK - 4 bet gets flatted and flop is gayness.

  
 
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Carroters
Old 09-10-2009, 12:34 AM     Post subject: AK - 4 bet gets flatted and flop is gayness. #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain is 25/22/15.6(3 bet) over 80 hands. Since he seems pretty 3-bet happy, I expected to take this down a fair amount preflop. I'm also happy to ship preflop and did not expect him to flat.

Although my 4 bet was defo on the small side for being oop this still leads me to believe he's not a reg or all that competent. His range on the flop though, is likely still pretty strong like [JJ-AA AK] Possibly AQ and TT if hes that bad, but I haven't got any relevant histroy in a 3 bet pot with him since this is the first time he's 3 bet me. Most of the 80 hands are from a different session and I've taken no notes so nothing concrete.

This is just feels wrong to me, but maybe it's okay other than the 4 bet being so small oop. Thoughts?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($31.35)
Button ($5.30)
SB ($16)
BB ($13.50)
Hero (UTG) ($29)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, A
Hero bets $1, MP raises $3.40, 3 folds, Hero raises $7.60, MP calls $5.20

Flop: ($17.55) J, 2, Q (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

Turn: ($17.55) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $7, Hero folds

Total pot: $17.55

 
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eternal
Old 09-10-2009, 12:48 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I cbet the flop here for half the pot. You got all that money in pf, you can't just give up on it immediately if you miss, why just just flat the raise and save yourself money when you don't hit. You can take it away from 88-10's or AK, AJ which I'm keepin in his range due to the ridiculous 3 bet stat. Do you have a fold to cbet stat running? Even if he has a made hand you have outs here. c/f the turn if nothing hits.
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Carroters
Old 09-10-2009, 01:09 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 I don't think a fold to c bet stat is so relevant in a 4 bet pot where his range is completely different.

Flatting the 3 bet pre-flop I think sucks being oop with AK. We have plenty FE vs a loose 3 bettor and when we flat we're giving up way too many flops being oop, although I suppose we can find good spots to c/r post flop vs his widish range. However, If we flop tp we're probably getting no to little action from hands like 88-QQ which may be a good chunk of his range. Just seems like a spot we never really get the best of it post flop.

 
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clvacva
Old 09-10-2009, 01:11 AM #4 (permalink)  
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" I expected to take this down a fair amount preflop." So should we not 4bet this guy more?

And I think you played it fine. I think against this habitual 3bettor we can assume he is flatting with AJ/AQ/KQ and he will most likely only fold TT and bellow on this flop. And I doubt he would fire the turn with his underpairs.
Maybe the best play would have been to raise the turn? get him off AJ/AQ?
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Carroters
Old 09-10-2009, 01:13 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clvacva
" I expected to take this down a fair amount preflop." So should we not 4bet this guy more?

And I think you played it fine. I think against this habitual 3bettor we can assume he is flatting with AJ/AQ/KQ and he will most likely only fold TT and bellow on this flop. And I doubt he would fire the turn with his underpairs.
Maybe the best play would have been to raise the turn? get him off AJ/AQ?
I haven't had a chance to 4 bet him yet, this was the first time he 3 bet me. Like I'd 4 bet him as a bluff in a heartbeat if I was in later position, it's just the fact that I've opened utg that leads me to believe his range post flop does not contain AJ and maybe not AQ. Also I don't think he folds AQ post flop to any line we take.

 
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philly and the phanatics
Old 09-10-2009, 02:07 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 i dont think he had jj+ak like op said bc i think he 5bets all in with those boys(at least kk+,Aks)...i think ajs+,aq,kqs,ako, 88-QQ....If you cbet the flop he is probably letting go anything but top pair (or better).


Thats 63 combos that he is playing preflop
4- ajs, 16-aq, 4-kqs, 9-ako, 30- 88-qq

on the J2Q board, his possible holdings shrink down to

3-ajs, 12-aq, 3-kqs, 9ako, 18-88-TT, 6- JJ,QQ

making it- 51 possible holdings

of that 51 he is folding all but AQ, KQ, QQ, JJ...21 hands out of a possible 51, 41%. So he is folding 59%. I think this makes betting into this flop EV+ for sure

All of this is contingent on him not continueing with his junk hands like 88-TT..AJ what not...depending on the player he could be calling a flop bet 100% of the time.
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clvacva
Old 09-10-2009, 02:22 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Phill why exclude AJo and KQo?

oh and how can he have 12 combos of AQ 3 aces left and 3queens = 9
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:54 AM #8 (permalink)  
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$4.5 on the flop, $6 on the turn, and think about shoving river depending on timing and card

you have JJ+ in your range, he does not (maybe JJ sometimes, but rarely)
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SushiWizard
Old 09-10-2009, 06:50 AM #9 (permalink)  
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I think the problem in this hand is that your small 4 bet makes his range too wide for you to be sure of anything. Is it not so far fetched that this guy might have 3bet you IP with anything like 88+ and then just flats your 4 bet because its so small? getting flatted is obviously the worst case scenario for you and your hand so why give him odds?

A larger 4 bet would have clarified this situation a ton for you. Say you pump it to $13ish.. If he folds good. If he calls hes probably got you smoked. And if he shoves you can just call since youre happy to get it in with this guy. Much simpler decisions for you as whole if you just raise more.


As played i like a 1/2 pot c bet. obviously hes never comming off AQ or KQ here but you get folds from 88-TT maybe even AJ if hes that bad to play it.
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bigspenda73
Old 09-10-2009, 06:54 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 PF is a call fo sho and I'd rarely 4bet small when OOP against the player you described.
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surviva316
Old 09-10-2009, 08:26 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 flatting preflop seems totally and absolutely fine here.

think of it this way, the ranges are pretty identical to if villain were a 20/15 who folded 75% to 3b's and you're in the BB and he PFR's from MP. that may sound confusing, but basically if you flat pre, his range is 15% of possible starting combinations, so the amount that you crush his range more than makes up for your lack of initiative OOP. if you 3b in the given example, then you're playing against a continuing range of like JJ+ AK. you see what i'm sayin?

the fact that SPR is lower in the real life HH should only make your hand even easier to play OOP
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tugger
Old 09-10-2009, 08:53 AM #12 (permalink)  
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His range is very wide here, he could be totally bluffing, or he could have top set. With no info, I'd put him on JJ+, but with the info we have he could just as easily have tens, AK, AQ, maybe even weaker.

I don't like the flop and turn play combined, because you're basically saying to him "I HAVE AK!!!". You've showed immense strength pre flop, and, assuming you're playing tight, he's got to consider the big hitters AA and KK. But checking both streets means you can't have these hands, and suddenly he's narrowed your hand down to AK, which means he can easily push you off.

I'd have been tempted to bet the turn. He'd have been expecting a c-bet on the flop, so the lack of it stinks of a check/raise (hence his check?), so when you bet the turn, it looks strong. Maybe he was trying to entice a bet from you, but we can easily fold AK here if he raises.
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Micro2Macro
Old 09-10-2009, 02:16 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 How positionally aware is his 3bet range? His range isn't necessarily 15% of holdings...or am I missing something

How many chances did he have to get a 15% 3bet? I've had 18% over 150 hands at full ring so yeah...shows you how much this sample size really tells you. I think game flow considerations are a huge factor in determining his range in this spot rather than just looking at his HUD stat and drawing a conclusion from that - just my 2c.
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philly and the phanatics
Old 09-10-2009, 06:55 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clvacva
Phill why exclude AJo and KQo?

oh and how can he have 12 combos of AQ 3 aces left and 3queens = 9
yea i forgot about our ak counting as blockers...sorry guys still getting a hang of that
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Outlaw
Old 09-10-2009, 09:28 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Once again we have like 10% of the info we need to comment on a hand.

What are YOU running for this session? That is what is most relevant. Has he been 3betting your UTG range?

Assuming you are running something like 20/17, why are you 4betting AK against a guy who 3bets your UTG range?

Flat the 3bet all day.. ship the right flop and hope he doesn't have the top of his range.

As played, check/fold the flop. What exactly are we ahead of in his range that 4bets your utg range? JJ? nope QQ? nope KK? nope AK/1010/99? nope Sure he might fold the last 3 to a cbet... but you would be forced to call a shove and that's just nasty.

Stop committing that much of your stack without a better plan.
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