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AK 3bet size.

  
 
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Ragnar4
Old 05-02-2009, 02:15 AM     Post subject: AK 3bet size. #1 (permalink)  
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3 bet size gut?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($4.55)
MP2 ($1.92)
CO ($8.01)
Button ($11.64)
SB ($5.78)
Hero (BB) ($5)
UTG ($2.95)
UTG+1 ($6.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K
3 folds, MP2 bets $0.15, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.45, MP2 raises to $1.92 (All-In), Hero calls $1.47

Flop: ($3.86) 7, 3, Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($3.86) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($3.86) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $3.86 | Rake: $0.15
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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Ragnar4
Old 05-02-2009, 02:19 AM #2 (permalink)  
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how bout here?
12/12 over like 8 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($1.50)
CO ($7.01)
Hero (Button) ($5.21)
SB ($9.02)
BB ($1.95)
UTG ($5.37)
UTG+1 ($9.27)
MP1 ($20.64)
MP2 ($6.67)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, A
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.05, MP2 calls $0.05, 1 fold, CO bets $0.25, Hero raises to $0.75, 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.70, CO raises to $7.01 (All-In), 2 folds

Total pot: $2.37 | Rake: $0
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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HarleyGuy13
Old 05-02-2009, 02:33 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 1.) I call but I prefer to shove with AK against the short stacks. Of course it would not have been appropriate here as a 3bet.

2.) I fold against a virtual unknown I think. He has you covered and has some sort of a made hand so I just figure I'll wait it out and find a better spot down the road. Or I wait til I know a little more about the villian.

I think the size of your 3bet is good on each but then wat the hell do I know!
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kmind
Old 05-02-2009, 02:59 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 I'd make my 3bet sizing like 3.5x OOP and 3x IP in most cases. As for the hands 1 is def fine but hand 2 I'd rather flat unless I have reads.
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Ragnar4
Old 05-02-2009, 03:17 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I don't flat with AKo very much. I went through a "Flat with AQo" phase that was hella profitable. Maybe I'll try to flat big stacks more often?

I'm just trying to play for SPR type stacks that involve getting all your money in. SPR of 5 with an AQ6 board is an auto all in, and it makes my decisions super simple.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-02-2009, 03:21 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 god that's one of the more tilting 3 sentences I've ever read. I swear if you or IOPQ say SPR one more time I'm going to go apeshit.
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Robb
Old 05-02-2009, 05:25 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
I don't flat with AKo very much. I went through a "Flat with AQo" phase that was hella profitable. Maybe I'll try to flat big stacks more often?

I'm just trying to play for SPR type stacks that involve getting all your money in. SPR of 5 with an AQ6 board is an auto all in, and it makes my decisions super simple.
Ah...spenda's post above explains the odd "SPR" in the other 3bet thread.

Ragnar, SPR isn't very important preflop in 3betting situations, fwiw. There are at least 5 other things to worry about first.
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Old 05-02-2009, 01:02 PM #8 (permalink)  
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make it 0.525 (3.5x)
also, can't 3b for value and fold
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Parasurama
Old 05-02-2009, 04:25 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
make it 0.525 (3.5x)
also, can't 3b for value and fold
What if villain's 3b calling range is super wide and his 4b range is super narrow? Not uncommon at 5NL.

Hand 1: 3b more, like kmind said 3.5x oop is good but I would do 4x at lower stakes

Hand 2: good 3b size
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Ragnar4
Old 05-02-2009, 04:52 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Perhaps I wasn't being positionally/playlevel aware, but I could have sworn I saw Spenda suggest that a 4x 3bet from OOP was a bad bet here a while back. Perhaps it was IP and I was too busy thinking about other things.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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Parasurama
Old 05-02-2009, 05:10 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
I don't flat with AKo very much. I went through a "Flat with AQo" phase that was hella profitable. Maybe I'll try to flat big stacks more often?

I'm just trying to play for SPR type stacks that involve getting all your money in. SPR of 5 with an AQ6 board is an auto all in, and it makes my decisions super simple.
Oh yeah one thing I forgot to say. I don't think trying to make your decisions simple is a good way to play poker. Concentrate on trying to play in the most +EV way you can, when difficult decisions arise you profit immensely against weaker players because they will make the wrong decision a large majority of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Perhaps I wasn't being positionally/playlevel aware, but I could have sworn I saw Spenda suggest that a 4x 3bet from OOP was a bad bet here a while back. Perhaps it was IP and I was too busy thinking about other things.
Probably was IP, 3b 4x IP is bad.
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Ragnar4
Old 05-02-2009, 08:02 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Why is it bad?

Right off the top of my head is: It tends to commit your opponent more quickly, not allowing you to use your positional advantage.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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kmind
Old 05-02-2009, 08:48 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
I don't flat with AKo very much. I went through a "Flat with AQo" phase that was hella profitable. Maybe I'll try to flat big stacks more often?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Perhaps I wasn't being positionally/playlevel aware, but I could have sworn I saw Spenda suggest that a 4x 3bet from OOP was a bad bet here a while back. Perhaps it was IP and I was too busy thinking about other things.
These two sentences lead me to believe that you kind of generalize poker and memorize advice as opposed to knowing when to apply it. Think about ranges. I think that's your biggest leak. I honestly didn't see you say the 12/12 was over only 8 hands but vs. tighter guys like that they are usually only felting KK+. Once you notice tendencies that the tighties will also get it in with QQ/AK from time to time then yeah you can start getting it in with sufficient odds as well as 3betting them when they call with any PP/AK and fold flops they don't hit on.
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Old 05-02-2009, 09:35 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
make it 0.525 (3.5x)
also, can't 3b for value and fold
What if villain's 3b calling range is super wide and his 4b range is super narrow? Not uncommon at 5NL.
that's not a read we have here, now do we?

of course any poker rule has exceptions... I'm just saying that against an unknown if you 3b any hand for value you should go with it preflop

similarly, if you call a 3b IP and flop good you should go with it on the flop

are there exceptions? yes, but if we don't have a read we should just fuck it and do it live
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bigspenda73
Old 05-02-2009, 10:03 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 iopq you're just so wrong, I don't know why you cannot realize it, but you're wrong.
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Robb
Old 05-02-2009, 11:53 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
make it 0.525 (3.5x)
also, can't 3b for value and fold
What if villain's 3b calling range is super wide and his 4b range is super narrow? Not uncommon at 5NL.
that's not a read we have here, now do we?

are there exceptions? yes, but if we don't have a read we should just fuck it and do it live
I pretty much quit calling a 4bet shove at 10nl w/ AK (w/o a read obv) through long, painful experience, but 3betting AK was often still quite valuable because, like Para says, very few times would I get 4bet, and TONS of times I'd get flatted with 44 or A2s. In general, I would think an unknown at 5nl would be EXACTLY the type of player I would 3bet AK and fold to a 4bet against while waiting for a specific read.

Generally, a 4bet shove at 10nl or lower means serious business.
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Old 05-03-2009, 01:32 AM #17 (permalink)  
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I would have to disagree, I used to think the same thing when I played NL10, but having played enough I've definitely seen villains stack off with AQ, 99, and all kinds of crap. Just because they were unknowns doesn't mean I folded my AK/QQ.

I mean, one hand that changed my mind was when someone 4b to 32BBs, and I shoved AK, he called and showed AQ. At NL10 I was sure he had AK/QQ+ because he 4b 2.5x (good sizing!) and called a shove. If I was following your guidelines of course I'd 3b/fold against an unknown. I just feel this is weak against an unknown because if it's a mistake it's a small one, we have 40% equity vs. AK/QQ+ (and yes, people do felt AK/QQ pf in NL10) when we already put in 10% of our stack in
but if villain is fucktarded/flipped the spew bit/bruffing then it's a huge mistake not to felt AK
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Robb
Old 05-03-2009, 02:21 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 I was addressing when I was 3betting AK and got 4bet shoved over. I'm pretty comfortable getting it all when I'm the one raising all-in w/ AK against 10nl unknowns. The 4bet shove at 10nl is generally strong, imo. And if they're shoving that range, I'll pick up read soon and start playing like you suggested.

I think a lot of noobies see KK+ and know they'll get outplayed postflop, so they just shove when calling the 3bet might be better longterm EV. They call off light a LOT more than they 4bet shove light at 10nl, imo.

A 1 handle sample is pretty dubious evidence for categorizing all unknowns at 10nl, btw.
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Parasurama
Old 05-03-2009, 04:36 AM #19 (permalink)  
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It's true that we don't have a read, so I guess we're arguing about what the default 4b range for an unknown at 10NL is? You're assigning a wider preflop felting range for an unknown than I am. I'll admit I don't know what it actually is but in my experience it's AA/KK in FR (remember this thread is about FR). So let's ask the BC.

BC: What's the range you assign for an unknown with 100BB's on a FR table shoving it in preflop?
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siltstrider
Old 05-03-2009, 04:16 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Calling 4bets with AK has lost me chips and won me chips. When I think about it, it depends on the the type of player who did it.

Did the guy limp, have it raised behind him, see two callers, and then my raise before he shoved? There's a good chance he's on something ridiculous like AJo and he thinks he's scaring everyone into folding so he can win a decent pot preflop. I saw a guy do this with 98s last night (he flopped a boat of course, if anyone is wondering how it turned out).

Is this guy so tight that this is the first hand he's raised in the past hundred and he's UTG? I won't even 3bet him here. He's thanking his lucky stars and snapshoving, obv.

EDIT:
BC: What's the range you assign for an unknown with 100BB's on a FR table shoving it in preflop?

If he simply open-shoved I stay away without KK+. Tempted to fold KK as well and just call with AA, since anyone buying in with the full amount usually isn't an idiot. I'm figuring AK and MAYBE QQ to be at the bottom of his range, and I'm not interested in being a slight favorite/dog vs the bottom and a huge dog vs the top.
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Old 05-03-2009, 06:41 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Robb
I was addressing when I was 3betting AK and got 4bet shoved over. I'm pretty comfortable getting it all when I'm the one raising all-in w/ AK against 10nl unknowns. The 4bet shove at 10nl is generally strong, imo. And if they're shoving that range, I'll pick up read soon and start playing like you suggested.

I think a lot of noobies see KK+ and know they'll get outplayed postflop, so they just shove when calling the 3bet might be better longterm EV. They call off light a LOT more than they 4bet shove light at 10nl, imo.

A 1 handle sample is pretty dubious evidence for categorizing all unknowns at 10nl, btw.
Actually we've already had this discussion at FTR, and I said villains don't felt worse than AK,QQ+
then someone replied with like 30 hand histories of villains felting utter crap for a full buy-in

also, I don't think it's a huge difference between 5b-shoving AK and calling a 4b-shove with AK because in BOTH cases the villain decided to 4b and I think they do it with the same range, just some villains have a "4b all in" default bet sizing and some villains have "small 4b" bet sizing

Parasurama is correct: we're discussing the default play at NL10
I think that at NL10 there are more villains that are fucktarded and will stack off with unreasonably bad hands than there villains that are utter nits
THIS MAY BE DIFFERENT SITE TO SITE

siltstrider: that's a shitty way to think, it only matters if our equity is better than the pot odds
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