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Carroters
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03-16-2009, 03:45 PM
Post subject: AK in 3 bet pot - confusion!
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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Villain ran 17/14/10 over 43 hands. I hadn't notcied him get too out of line yet and hadn't played a pot with him either. I figured I had to c bet this flop to fold out the lesser pairs he might flat my 3 bet with and I likely had outs if called. Really confused with what to do on this turn. Not sure there are too many hands in his range after calling that flop that will fold to a barrell here that arent now counterfitted anyway.
Thoughts?
Edit: I'd normally 3 bet more here fwiw - just mashed the pot button as I was about to time down.
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($25.29)
Button ($22.87)
Hero (SB) ($20.97)
BB ($5.50)
UTG ($4)
Preflop: Hero is SB with K , A
1 fold, MP bets $0.70, 1 fold, Hero raises $2.20, 1 fold, MP calls $1.60
Flop: ($4.80) Q, 10 , Q (2 players)
Hero bets $3.15, MP calls $3.15
Turn: ($11.10) 10 (2 players)
Hero?
Total pot: $11.10
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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What an awful board by the turn being OOP. What is he calling the flop with? AQ? AA-TT? Those all kill you. If he's got a lower pocket pair, then you now have him crushed. I feel you man on this one. hopefully someone more experienced can give you some better insight. Being OOP sucks donkey dick.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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coozhound
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 28
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my self i would have folded it was a easy one at that, don't know the % but i don't like it one bit he is sitting on something good he came out 75% of pot pre flop A,Q i would put him on...RUFF
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<<<<<<JUST A TROLL LOOKING FOR A FREE BRIDGE TO CROSS>>>>>>
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airles™
What an awful board by the turn being OOP. What is he calling the flop with? AQ? AA-TT? Those all kill you. If he's got a lower pocket pair, then you now have him crushed. I feel you man on this one. hopefully someone more experienced can give you some better insight. Being OOP sucks donkey dick.
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Yeah agreed this really sucks ass. Probably an easy c/f then. Is the flop c bet standard?
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KeeKoLy
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airles™
What an awful board by the turn being OOP. What is he calling the flop with? AQ? AA-TT? Those all kill you. If he's got a lower pocket pair, then you now have him crushed. I feel you man on this one. hopefully someone more experienced can give you some better insight. Being OOP sucks donkey dick.
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Yeah agreed this really sucks ass. Probably an easy c/f then. Is the flop c bet standard? |
This is a question like other long post on cbetting on the forum right now. Normally I would cbet this flop like you did, but I too am wondering if it's a -EV move on this board OOP. This is not a dry board by any standards, if you checked the flop, any chance he would have checked also thinking you were setting him up??
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I'm betting like $1.75 on the flop and going from there. Turn is a pretty cool spot, what do you feel like he's peeling on the flop with?
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I'm betting like $1.75 on the flop and going from there. Turn is a pretty cool spot, what do you feel like he's peeling on the flop with?
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any reason why you'd bet so small on flop?
also i think the turn a good spot to barrel? flush and straight draws will bow out the way since FH's are definitely in your range.
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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What's the merit of the $1.75 other than it saving us money when he has a big hand here?
While I like that idea, I don't wanna be looking weak as hell on such a drawy board. I mean if I have AA/KK/AQ imo I'm going to always be betting more here in his eyes. Feel like the $1.75 induces bluffs from random whiffed hands somewhat since I can never have much of a real hand with this bet size cept maybe quads or 10s full. It also doesn't fold out 88, 99, JJ as well as a regular sized c bet would.
Am I over thinking this?
I have no idea what he's calling the flop with sicne - he's pretty unknown. My guess at a range would be something like:
[AA, KK, JJ, AQ, KQs, floats with AK, 88, 99]
Based on solid stats I'd expect him to shove a fd so I don't have them in his range.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I'd bet $1.75 with AA/KK as well, I love how people automatically assume I would bet a different size with AK than AA here.
You really leave yourself a lot less options in 3bet pots if you're going to cbet this big. If you bet $1.75 you can still get all the money in easily on 3 streets, and you don't have to worry about protecting a hand if he's going to be jamming draws. You'll induce floats, but you'll have much more room to 2 and 3 barrel.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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I think there was a discussion fnord started about a year ago about smaller 3 bets and how they allow you to get value from 3 streets AND barrel in good spots.
That said, we're still kind of deep because the preflop 3bet was smallish. The guy's preflop agro is 10, but that's over like 6 hands post-flop. What's he flat calling the flop with? I say check/fold turn and bet/fold $5.40ish river if he checks back.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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I definitely two-barrel this board.. I doubt he continues with any pocket pair other than the obvious one.. he folds any SD.
An interesting play would be to check/shove? He only calls with a queen? I doubt he bets the turn here when filling up.. so I think we have great FE... if he checks behind we are happy to check/check the river because he might have AJ, 22-99 too.
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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I like the c/r turn idea it can induce bluffs from counterfitted hands with 0 SD value a lot. The only reservation I have though is that him calling this flop looks pretty strong and boats make up a decent amount I think here.
Typically, the most common hands villains at 20NL at i-poker flat 3 bets with imo are 1010, JJ and AQ the latter obv having the more combinations.
I don't like barrelling this turn so much because it's pretty much wa/wb imo and I don't think we can trust hum to fold too much that beats us (maybe JJ). By checking we can at least keep his valueless hands in the hand and often get them to bet if we plan to c/r.
I c/f'd here because I'm a pussy and generally don't try fancy stuff at this level. I'd like to think he only calls a c/r with a Q, but in the absecne of reads he could easily be shipping AA, KK aswell. Even guys that have figured out they shouldn't limp pre flop and know what hands to raise from where can often suprise you at micros by doing unbelievably retarded things post flop.
My game is so rigid at times just because the stations and spew bags are everywhere.
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coozhound
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 28
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ok you guys are losing me with OOP and O SD TWO BARREL and some other shit up there FE ...might help me know what the hell im talking about when i open my mouth and how do i find out what he's playing?
17/14/10 i know how to find mine but the other players or is that just putting in work?
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<<<<<<JUST A TROLL LOOKING FOR A FREE BRIDGE TO CROSS>>>>>>
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okiman
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 171
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by coozhound
ok you guys are losing me with OOP and O SD TWO BARREL and some other shit up there FE ...might help me know what the hell im talking about when i open my mouth and how do i find out what he's playing?
17/14/10 i know how to find mine but the other players or is that just putting in work?
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OOP - out of position
0 SD value - zero showdown value
Two Barrel - c-betting flop and again on turn (w/o a made hand)
FE - fold equity
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Typically, the most common hands villains at 20NL at i-poker flat 3 bets with imo are 1010, JJ and AQ the latter obv having the more combinations.
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TT: 1 combo
JJ: 6 combos
AQ: 6 combos
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Erpel
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Typically, the most common hands villains at 20NL at i-poker flat 3 bets with imo are 1010, JJ and AQ the latter obv having the more combinations.
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TT: 1 combo
JJ: 6 combos
AQ: 6 combos |
I was referring to pre flop combos. Just making the point that AQ is the most common hand for vilains to flat 3 bets with in these games overall.
I do recognise it is less likely than usual on this flop.
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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I want to go back a bit on this hand if anyone will indulge me...
What do you guys think about flat calling pre-flop then betting into this flop? What impression does that leave on him, I know he only calls that bet with KK, AA, probably folding the rest, hmm...
That is a gut reaction to reading it, I'll have to think that through a bit more before I'm convinced it has any merit...
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LuckySlevin
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Poker Room
Posts: 1,050
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Can't say I like the idea of flat calling pre, we just have no idea what hand we're up against on the flop if we flat call.
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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True, you have no idea what you are up against pre-flop for SURE, but what hands does a villian like this bet 7xBB with pre-flop, from MP, my experience shows it to be a fairly tight range, 22+, AK, AQ maybe KJ, unless the table is super tight... of that AK is pretty far ahead, and 3 betting into those hands, which ones continue? Does 3-betting this pre-flop cause weaker hands which we dominate pre-flop to drop out?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to comprehend...
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