|
OngBonga
|
08-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Post subject: AK oop 2nl
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
|
|
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
MP1 ($4.56)
MP2 ($1.96)
MP3 ($4.18)
CO ($4.97)
Button ($7.63)
SB ($4.22)
Hero (BB) ($2)
UTG ($2.50)
UTG+1 ($1.99)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , K
UTG bets $0.06, UTG+1 calls $0.06, 3 folds, CO calls $0.06, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.04
Flop: ($0.25) 6 , J, 2 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets $0.15, Hero folds, 2 folds
Total pot: $0.25 | Rake: $0.01
Haven't got a HUD running yet, I'm onto that, but what I do know is UTG is tight, hardly played any hands in 50-odd and has largely gone unnoticed, UTG+1 is loose-passive fish and CO has just sat down last orbit, it's his first action hand.
My question, should I 3bet this spot pf? If so, what bet size? 24c? And flop? Can I c/raise bluff someone I know nothing about to test the water? Or is the fold the obvious correct thing at the flop? I'm pretty sure a call here is awful unless we're floating, but this surely isn't wise against someone we know nothing about?
I'm certainly having trouble with AK oop.
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
OngBonga
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
|
|
Sorry about the title, I can't seem to edit it to AK oop 2nl
|
|
|
|
Outlaw
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
|
|
Against an UTG raise its fine to fold AK preflop but depending on the villain, this is a very good spot to squeeze. AK benefits from fold equity and 3-betting an UTG raiser represents massive strength. Not necessarily at 2NL, but you will get a lot of folds from the 88-QQ, AQ/AK part of his range.
Once again everything depends on reads.
|
|
|
|
OngBonga
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
|
|
Reads are obviously sketchy for UTG who I don't think has shown anything down and the CO who's just sat down, UTG+1 range is pretty wide, I'm way ahead of him the vast majority of the time. I gotta respect UTG and put him on 99+ AJs+ AQo+, as for the CO you can add a few weaker aces and pairs, maybe a few suit-cons.
Yeah, the fold crossed my mind, but really, fold AK pf for 4c? I don't think I can do that!
|
|
|
|
StarGrinder
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UTG (aka USA)
Posts: 683
|
|
I don't see a problem with how you played the hand. Definitely don't fold here for 3bb in a multi-way pot. If you squeeze, be prepared to get in.
|
|
|
|
Icanhastreebet
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
Against an UTG raise its fine to fold AK preflop but depending on the villain, this is a very good spot to squeeze. AK benefits from fold equity and 3-betting an UTG raiser represents massive strength. Not necessarily at 2NL, but you will get a lot of folds from the 88-QQ, AQ/AK part of his range.
Once again everything depends on reads.
|
Are you a troll? Serious question.
Do you honestly think folding AK to an UTG open + 2callers out of the bb when you are getting like 7million to 1 immediate is correct? This would mean your continuing range is like QQ+ or some shit and your 3b range would be AA suited. I mean wtf. In your other thread you say generally we should give UTG raises respect REGARDLESS OF READS then in this thread you go and say "everything depends on reads". wtf is up with that?
Then you go on and say squeezing AK should be okay. Okay why the fuck do you expect his range to be 88-AA, AQ/AK and why do you think he's folding like 85% of it? Nice read bra.
And el oh fucking el @ "representing massive strength" @ 2nl. This in itself is deserving of the lollerpie post of the day.
Anyway, flatting pre is super std @ 2nl, people have tonnes of dominated hands but 3bing may cause them to fold these tonnes of dominated hands, squeezing can be fine if 1 of the villains is a huge station that we want to isolate.
|
|
|
|
Icanhastreebet
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
|
|
but ffs don't squeeze as a fucking bluff w/ AK @ 2nl, it's retarded
|
|
|
|
surviva316
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
|
|
def squeeze as a bluff here. if we had KK, we should just fold because it doesn't have as good of blockers as AK
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
|
|
StarGrinder
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UTG (aka USA)
Posts: 683
|
|
lol yaaawn, post of the day imo
|
|
|
|
OngBonga
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
|
|
"squeezing can be fine if 1 of the villains is a huge station that we want to isolate."
Noted.
|
|
|
|
Outlaw
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
|
|
In case you aren't banned already, I will go and and respond, even though I can't believe I am playing into a trolls hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
Are you a troll? Serious question.
|
Halfing Cleric in Everquest way back
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
Do you honestly think folding AK to an UTG open + 2callers out of the bb when you are getting like 7million to 1 immediate is correct?
|
Nope, never said it was. You didn't read his entire post he asked :
Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
My question, should I 3bet this spot pf?
|
I simply responded to situations against UTG raisers.. not this specific hand necessarily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
In your other thread you say generally we should give UTG raises respect REGARDLESS OF READS then in this thread you go and say "everything depends on reads". wtf is up with that?
|
More respect than usual yes due to turning our hand face up. Remember, not everyone at the table has a read on the UTG.. all they see is what you just did to an UTG raiser. A bit advanced for you to understand, not going to try and explain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
Then you go on and say squeezing AK should be okay. Okay why the fuck do you expect his range to be 88-AA, AQ/AK and why do you think he's folding like 85% of it? Nice read bra.
|
He doesn't need to fold 85% of it.. only 63% of it.. a lot less with all of the limpers. Depends on the read but note.. the key is the fold equity of AK and that is what makes 3-betting and 4-betting it so strong. Besides the blockers it wins money with fold equity against hands that are 57% equity against us. I didn't say I would just go around squeezing UTG raisers all day.. but in cases with a ton of limpers, you are missing massive profit if you don't at least consider it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
And el oh fucking el @ "representing massive strength" @ 2nl. This in itself is deserving of the lollerpie post of the day.
|
2NL is poker just like 1kNL. But thats why I said "not necessarily at 2NL" Once again, read the entire post and stop skimming posts looking for people to troll against.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
Anyway, flatting pre is super std @ 2nl, people have tonnes of dominated hands but 3bing may cause them to fold these tonnes of dominated hands, squeezing can be fine if 1 of the villains is a huge station that we want to isolate.
|
Just keep flatting AK and continue to wonder why your BR disappears.
This will be my last response ever to you so don't bother responding unless you are actually decent enough to apologize. I will accept it and we can move forward amicably if you do. But seriously.. in the future make sure you read the whole post and know what the heck you are talking about before you make accusations.
|
|
|
|
StarGrinder
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UTG (aka USA)
Posts: 683
|
|
fight fight fight
|
|
|
|
Icanhastreebet
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
|
|
you said fucking fold, no one said ANYTHING about limpers, how do we turn our hand faceup? surely if you are turning your hand faceup you are doing something very very wrong as your overall strategy.
wow 63% of it(It being the range of an unknown who you have no clue what he's opening or folding)., I guess you didn't consider the other 2 players in the hand and the fact that our sizing changes the % it needs to work.
Why the fuck would you give more respect to a positionally unaware 80/60 or a positionally unaware 50/30.
Yes 2NL and 1kNL are poker and you should use the most exploitive strategy in either game. This still depends on reads you retard and a "general" read @ 2nl is that people don't have a clue what's going on so trying to "represent" massive strength is f***ing retarded.
I never said I'm flatting AK 100%, I said readless flatting is correct, folding is retarded(you suggested this) and 3b/not knowing what to do is equally bad. You picked the 2 worst options and told hero those were more correct then the actual only correct option.
Oh and how about you help my BR disappear.
HU4Rollz? or should I say HU4URrakebacks.
|
|
|
|
kmind
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
|
|
Sweet thread
|
|
|
|
surviva316
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
|
|
lol, i wonder if outlaw knew who icanhastreebet was, if he'd be more prone to be like "oh darn, a better player pointed out that my suggestion was retarded. let me retract and see what was wrong with my thinking."
as it stands, it simply appears he thinks it's some 2nl busto troll who's picking on him.......oh well
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
|
|
supa
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 985
|
|
Ignoring all the crazyness in the above posts, and as someone who's actually playing (and finally beating) 2nl,I 3bet bluff that every time. It's usually gonna end up with everyone folding, certainly enough to make it profitable. Flatting sucks here because when you don't hit the flop (which is what, 65% of the time?) you're playing multiway oop and folding to any aggression.
@Outlaw and 3bet- You would both serve the b/c better if you got on the same page, unless this is just for entertainment value, in which case keep it up cuz it's friggin hilarious. 
|
“Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions produce work which will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of it all”
Put hero on a goddamn range part II- The 6max years
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
start using your brain more and vagina less
|
|
|
bhaley66
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
lol, i wonder if outlaw knew who icanhastreebet was, if he'd be more prone to be like "oh darn, a better player pointed out that my suggestion was retarded. let me retract and see what was wrong with my thinking."
as it stands, it simply appears he thinks it's some 2nl busto troll who's picking on him.......oh well
|
I'm lovin it, he will realize it sooner or later...
|
|
|
|
Imthenewfish
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
|
|
first
Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
lol, i wonder if outlaw knew who icanhastreebet was, if he'd be more prone to be like "oh darn, a better player pointed out that my suggestion was retarded. let me retract and see what was wrong with my thinking."
as it stands, it simply appears he thinks it's some 2nl busto troll who's picking on him.......oh well
|
+1
now
Quote:
Originally Posted by supahaole
Ignoring all the crazyness in the above posts, and as someone who's actually playing (and finally beating) 2nl,I 3bet bluff that every time. It's usually gonna end up with everyone folding, certainly enough to make it profitable. Flatting sucks here because when you don't hit the flop (which is what, 65% of the time?) you're playing multiway oop and folding to any aggression.
@Outlaw and 3bet- You would both serve the b/c better if you got on the same page, unless this is just for entertainment value, in which case keep it up cuz it's friggin hilarious. |
I think that we get so much more value from value betting our hand when we flop tptk that 35% of the time than just trying to win the dead money pre. Obviously I think 3betting is +EV here, but I think flatting it is much better.
|
|
|
|
paratrooper99
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 135
|
|
IMO, AKsuited is only dominated by aces. Even though there will be many better spots with 60-40 or better odds in favor of your hand, I like a call here. Granted, this is a common AA move that villian either has or is representing. If villian is a thinking player, he is thinking that unless you are a total donk, what will you call with? Premiums only, so the percentages are strongly against you actually having a premium but, in fact you do. Call.
|
|
|
|
JKDS
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by supahaole
Flatting sucks here because when you don't hit the flop (which is what, 65% of the time?) you're playing multiway oop and folding to any aggression.
|
K. 2 events
65% : we miss and fold. we lose 6 cents
35%: we hit and own everyones soul. we win 18cents without counting any other money going in.
So if we never make any more post and just take it down...flattin is already profitable ya?
But...can we ever make more than that when we hit?
Im also gonna add that LDO flatting is 100% standard here and is >>>>>>>+EV than raising ever is at 2nl.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
|
|
|
Icanhastreebet
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by supahaole
Ignoring all the crazyness in the above posts, and as someone who's actually playing (and finally beating) 2nl,I 3bet bluff that every time. It's usually gonna end up with everyone folding, certainly enough to make it profitable. Flatting sucks here because when you don't hit the flop (which is what, 65% of the time?) you're playing multiway oop and folding to any aggression.
@Outlaw and 3bet- You would both serve the b/c better if you got on the same page, unless this is just for entertainment value, in which case keep it up cuz it's friggin hilarious. |
wat, I will never get on the same page as someone who never considers each option or has horrible reasoning for his "optimal" option.
That said folding still isn't an option rofl. 3bing readless is silly.
|
|
|
|
OngBonga
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
|
|
Great stuff. Cheers guys for the very useful comments and awesome entertainment.
Flatting is profitable four handed when he hit the flop one in three times, that's surely standard maths? We only need to hit (and hold up) one in four times to get our pf money back. I can't see the reverse implied odds of having our TPTK beat is enough for us to feel a call is bad, though I don't know how many times AK hits and loses here against the ranges we're up against, so I can't do the maths. I'd say we hit and take more money against draws and worse TPs than we lose when we hit and pay off a set or 2pr or whatever, so flatting this spot is profitable, I can work that much out. But I don't know if 3betting is more profitable. Folding for me is very obviously a pissy leak, but I don't think anyone here seriously folds this. It crossed my mind for all of half a second.
As for the comment "representing massive strength", I'm gonna shock you all and tell you I would be concerned if I saw someone 3bet UTG's raise and I'd trim my range accordingly. I appreciate that the majority of 2nl players are fish, donks, morons and idiots, but there is a minority who are positionally aware and thinking about what is going on in front of them, trying to figure out if a 3bet is going to have worse hands call or if it's just putting more money into a pot that I need to hit. 3betting must be followed by a sizeable flop cbet (or perhaps a c/raise bluff), I've got to continue to show the strength that I was so keen to show pf and hope he has 99, TT, AQ or AK (pretty much all he is folding in his range on this flop). Ya I think I need a pretty solid read to 3bet here.
Again, thanks for the input to all. I know it's not a particularly exciting hand to share with you all, but it's a common spot that I don't know if I'm playing correctly. It's ironic because in my first post I say I'm having problems with AK oop, yet last night's session it was my big earning hand. Interestingly, I was 3betting it every time, but then the table was extremely laggy. I was getting a lot of action and I was 3betting for value.
Got my HUD running now, so no more statless hands!
|
|
|
|
spoonitnow
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Got my HUD running now, so no more statless hands!
|
Congrats. Come into IRC (see the link in my signature) and we can help you set it up if you'd like.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
|
|
|
OngBonga
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
|
|
Cheers spoon, will look at that
|
|
|
|
Sasquach991
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rat Cheer
Posts: 1,012
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
but ffs don't squeeze as a fucking bluff w/ AK @ 2nl, it's retarded
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
def squeeze as a bluff here. if we had KK, we should just fold because it doesn't have as good of blockers as AK
|
|
"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'"
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
|
|
|
OngBonga
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
|
|
I think the second comment has an element of sarcasm. Just an element though.
|
|
|
|
Sasquach991
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rat Cheer
Posts: 1,012
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
I think the second comment has an element of sarcasm. Just an element though.
|
To say surviva has an element of sarcasm has an element of sarcasm in itself.
|
"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'"
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
