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kb coolman
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01-09-2009, 04:53 AM
Post subject: AJo from MP
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Since the topic fits, here's my hand. EP villan is 44/13/2.5 over about 170. LP villan is 14/6/1.6 TAG over 140.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG+1 ($11.15)
MP1 ($9.05)
Hero (MP2) ($10.70)
MP3 ($2)
CO ($10.85)
Button ($3.50)
SB ($2)
BB ($9.55)
UTG ($19.10)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A , J
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, CO calls $0.40, 2 folds, BB calls $0.30
Flop: ($1.25) A , 2, J (3 players)
BB bets $0.70, Hero calls $0.70, CO calls $0.70
Turn: ($3.35) 9 (3 players)
BB bets $1.90, Hero calls $1.90, CO calls $1.90
River: ($9.05) 9 (3 players)
BB bets $6.55 (All-In), Hero ???
Obviously, I'm way ahead of EP range here, but does this river bet say boat/flush or OMG I HAS TPTK?? According to Stove, I have 81% equity in this hand against op ranges.
What about my flat calls here? I decided not to raise for two reasons. First, to keep LP in the hand, and second, does a call or re-raise really give me any information against EP? I just don't see any way I'm laying down top two on this flop.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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{split from other 2pr thread}
While you both have two pair, one thing that might help you is realizing just because you both have top-two doesn't in any way make the two HH's similar or that the hands should be played in a similar fashion.
The river isn't where this hand is misplayed or where the big decision should be, analyze your flop and turn play and let's discuss some ways it could be improved.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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I explained my reasons for flatting here in OP, but that doesn't mean I think that's the best line. I've been kicking this one around for a while. Honestly, I don't know what the best line is here. HALP!!!
On the flop, EPs open could easily be building a pot on the draw with 1/2 pot bet. If that's the case, do I need to raise here to $2? My call here also give LP great odds to draw.
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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If OP was going to make a pot sized bet on the flop,should it include the BB's bet on the flop?. i.e would it be $1.25 or $2 ( for neatness) or should he be going 3x or 4x the BB's flop bet to make the draws (KQ,QT,KT and diamond flush draws) pay to make their draws. I don't think there will be an KK,QQ out there or they may well have reraised preflop,JJ AA are small possibilities as we already know the whereabouts of two of each,AA may be slow playing preflop and JJ may be worried about bigger pocket pair preflop so just called. Anyone with a big Ace is likely to call thinking they have the best kicker.
By the turn the BB likes his hand , hes lead out twice into the pre flop raiser and just been called down I'm putting him on a big ace or the diamond draw.As he's just been called he may think the others don't have an Ace.I think Hero should have raised to $3.50 which would have made the flush and str8 draws think whether they wanted to continue, opens up possibility of all in on the river , being able to consider whether to fold if the flush or str8 draws hit on the river, and possibly gets one of the opponents to fold so that its heads up on the river.
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kevster
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Fold City
Posts: 758
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2 pair is a great made hand but it's vunerable (particularly with two others in the pot) so you absolutely should be raising his flop bet here.
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So what happens to the guy who holds AKo and the third diamond comes on the turn? Is he stacking off? (on the river he is due to the size of the pot)
What happens when you see a K on the turn? Are you super happy to stack off?
Those two guys probably have a combined total of 11 outs on you or something give or take a few.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
So what happens to the guy who holds AKo and the third diamond comes on the turn? Is he stacking off? (on the river he is due to the size of the pot)
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Are you referring to EP here, or are you asking me what I would do? Personally, I never like to stack off with TPTK unless I have a good read on the villan. In this case, I would stack off on the flop. Not so sure about the river.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
What happens when you see a K on the turn? Are you super happy to stack off?
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Yes, for the simple reason that he would have 3bet me pre with KK, and since I hold an ace, it's unlikely he just made top two.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Those two guys probably have a combined total of 11 outs on you or something give or take a few.
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Yea, but I'm still wondering if I should call the river here with top two. It seems pretty week against this board, and villan has shown strength on every street. Stove tells me I have tremendous equity here, but idk. Stove is just a bot, and can't take betting patterns into play. This feels more like a coin flip, where I either think he has it, or he's bluffing me.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I just don't get your thought process, are you slowplaying?
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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he could easily have AK, AQ, 22, JJ, AA, or A2, 22 combos we beat, 7 we dont. Easy call i think, but preflop you simply have to be raising with flush and straight draws out there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I just don't get your thought process, are you slowplaying?
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From OP, I want to keep the LP tag in the hand. Mistake?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I just don't get your thought process, are you slowplaying?
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From OP, I want to keep the LP tag in the hand. Mistake? |
Explain why that's a good idea.
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Yes, I am asking you to put yourself in his shoes. If he thinks that TPTK is good enough to play for stacks, is he going to be very happy with a diamond on the turn? Suddenly it's TPTK, but with a possible flush vs. two villains. When is he going to put in more money, before the flush draw gets there or after?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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iopq is certainly mentioning one of two reasons I raise the flop, and the more overlooked of the two reasons.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Man, I'm confused, but bear with me while I muddle through this. I'm missing something here, but I'm trying to think it through. My problem right now is that I know I have a leak here, but I just don't fully understand what it is. I know you guys are trying to lead me to the answer, but it just isn't clicking. Hopefully I'll have an epiphany and plug this leak.
Ok, iopq, If I'm playing TPTK, I won't be happy with the diamond river against two oppnents. I would be putting in more money before the flush hits.
If I evaluate strong hands that are vulnerable on the flop, we have TPTK, TPGK, two pair, sets. His line could be any one of these. Since the river diamond also pairs the board, his action looks a lot more like a set with the perfect river completing the flush, but making his boat.
I assume I need to raise the flop for two reasons: value and protection. Assuming the flush draw, raising here for value gives my opp bad odds to call on the draw. Raising for protection either buys me the pot now, or let's me know I could be up against a better made hand, amirite? This protects my stack. But if he calls my raise, what do I know about his hand? TPTK could still be in his calling range, as would a set.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
Raising let's me know I could be up against a better made hand, amirite? .
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raising doesn't let you know anything, your opponent's subsequent actions after you raise let you know something.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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You raise the flop because
-the board is draw-heavy and it's a multiway pot
-we have top-two
-the pot is small and this hand should play a big pot
-we want to protect our hand
-we want worse hands to call that might fold on later streets when they miss
-bad cards can kill our action on later streets from worse made hands
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
raising doesn't let you know anything, your opponent's subsequent actions after you raise let you know something.
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Ha ha...smart ass. You know what I meant. 
So what do my opponents actions tell me? If he hit a set here, I'm losing a ton of chips, and there's nothing much I can do about it if he calls, right? How about if I'm faces with a re-raise? Anyway I should fold this out before the river?
And to your other points:
-the board is draw-heavy and it's a multiway pot - got it
-the pot is small and this hand should play a big pot -got it
-we want to protect our hand - ok
-we want worse hands to call that might fold on later streets when they miss - uh huh
-bad cards can kill our action on later streets from worse made hands - is this about building the pot while the draw is still alive?
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Robb
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01-09-2009, 08:14 PM
Post subject: Re: AJo from MP
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#18 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,070
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OK, I've read whole thread, like Spenda's comments and IOPQ's. I'd like to focus on a couple minor points. In OP:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
LP villan is 14/6/1.6 TAG over 140.
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This doesn't really fit my definition of FR TAGG. This is more tight-passive pre, weak-tight post, imo. This (for me) was the gist of our PM conversation: if LP is a 14/12 TAGG, we can guess he's probably set hunting and (if it seems wise depending upon other considerations) leave him in the hand. But what is the cold call range for a 14/6 player in the CO? Not just small/med pp's. Now he's not calling with just anything. But think about how many combos are in his cc range, and kinds of hands he might have.
LP probably has a set (unlikely), med pp, or a draw. His draw is either a naked sc that caught lucky diamonds or some kind of combo BW hand with a diamond, maybe 2. Not raising the flop gives LP perfect odds for his draws which, imo, are at least 3/4's of his possible holdings.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
What about my flat calls here? I decided not to raise for two reasons. First, to keep LP in the hand, and second, does a call or re-raise really give me any information against EP? I just don't see any way I'm laying down top two on this flop.
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You're NOT laying down top two. You're nearly always the best hand of the three here. But you know EP caught a piece of the flop, and LP (if he stays in) will likely be drawing. You simply can't give LP almost 4 to 1 pot odds and some juicy implied odds.
Another factor that's overlooked so far in this thread is that you have MAJOR positional problems if you play passively, acting between the flop donk-aggressor and LP.
All that said, I'm looking for a nice raise on the flop, say $2.25 or so. If I get raised, I'm just shoving over the top or calling the shove.
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kb coolman
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01-09-2009, 08:34 PM
Post subject: Re: AJo from MP
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#19 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
Another factor that's overlooked so far in this thread is that you have MAJOR positional problems if you play passively, acting between the flop donk-aggressor and LP.
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Could you elaborate on this point?
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Robb
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01-09-2009, 11:28 PM
Post subject: Re: AJo from MP
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#20 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,070
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
Another factor that's overlooked so far in this thread is that you have MAJOR positional problems if you play passively, acting between the flop donk-aggressor and LP.
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Could you elaborate on this point? |
Hero's action doesn't close the betting on any round. Any action from LP other than calling means he's probably got serious equity against Hero's hand. And that action will happen AFTER Hero has called a flop or turn bet. And then what if the BB calls the LP raise? Hero's probably got enough equity and pot odds for a call, but the situation is pretty dire. He has to call the bet and raise incrementally, each time getting "correct odds," but likely in trouble against a LP villain that "woke up."
I guess the major problem with Hero's position is that the LP villain's range is drawy and unknown, and Hero has to commit chips before LP acts on the turn/river, when the big money is likely to go in. Hero could get caught between a BB hand he beats (but that the BB won't lay down) and a LP hand that beats Hero. And that would suck. For Hero, at least.
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