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dan
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03-30-2006, 11:57 AM
Post subject: AJo/AJs in EP
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 288
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do u just fold this hand if u know ur gonna get called if u raise preflop?
lately ive decided that im probably going to be saving money by not playing AJs/o or AQs/o in EP unless im at a tight table...is this just standard?
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I'm assuming you're talking 10max here? Cuz in 6max I'll gladly raise AJ in EP.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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dan
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 288
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yea full ring...
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
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I muck it.
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dan
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 288
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ok wat about LP, with a few limpers.
POKERSTARS GAME #4462640258: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/03/30 - 08:20:37 (ET)
Table 'Theodora V' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: ouziee ($24.90 in chips)
Seat 2: msc69 ($14.35 in chips)
Seat 3: isssa ($20.20 in chips)
Seat 4: Michorr ($63.45 in chips)
Seat 5: danj001 ($28.05 in chips)
Seat 6: hbwop ($7.50 in chips)
Seat 7: joss2006 ($12.10 in chips)
Seat 8: MalYZ ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 9: RDeSh ($7 in chips)
hbwop: posts small blind $0.10
joss2006: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to danj001 [As Js]
MalYZ: folds
RDeSh: calls $0.25
ouziee: folds
msc69: calls $0.25
isssa: calls $0.25
Michorr: folds
danj001: ???
i am pretty positive i could raise to something like $4 and some idiot would call me...lol
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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surely you want to be playing it at loose tables. I can understand being cautious OOP at a TAG table but when you are being called down by Ax, AJ is too good an opportunity to pass up
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dan
ok wat about LP, with a few limpers.
POKERSTARS GAME #4462640258: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/03/30 - 08:20:37 (ET)
Table 'Theodora V' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: ouziee ($24.90 in chips)
Seat 2: msc69 ($14.35 in chips)
Seat 3: isssa ($20.20 in chips)
Seat 4: Michorr ($63.45 in chips)
Seat 5: danj001 ($28.05 in chips)
Seat 6: hbwop ($7.50 in chips)
Seat 7: joss2006 ($12.10 in chips)
Seat 8: MalYZ ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 9: RDeSh ($7 in chips)
hbwop: posts small blind $0.10
joss2006: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to danj001 [As Js]
MalYZ: folds
RDeSh: calls $0.25
ouziee: folds
msc69: calls $0.25
isssa: calls $0.25
Michorr: folds
danj001: ???
i am pretty positive i could raise to something like $4 and some idiot would call me...lol |
Make it $1.5
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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when im playing well, i fold aj s or not every time ep. unless im at Full Tilt, because i play every hand there. most tight passive site ever.
folding AJ ep is one indicator of how sharp my game is, another is if im folding AQ in position to a raise.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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bair
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 953
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depends on the table, in LP and MP im raising all day
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
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What is with this concept that the puropse of a raise is to get people to fold?
The sole main purpose of raising should to get more money in the pot with the best hand.
Every other reason is secondary.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
What is with this concept that the puropse of a raise is to get people to fold?
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The blinds are worth more than most hands.
But yeah, I agree that raising in NLHE is more about building pots and establishing hand ranges/inititative.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
What is with this concept that the puropse of a raise is to get people to fold?
The sole main purpose of raising should to get more money in the pot with the best hand.
Every other reason is secondary.
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Do you never consider the postflop playability of your hand when deciding whether or not you raise preflop?
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Do you never consider the postflop playability of your hand when deciding whether or not you raise preflop?
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Suited, connected and/or big cards are nice to have.
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Ebene
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
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I limp every time from EP w/ AJ and Ajs; it hasn't been giving me any problems and is showing a modest profit. If no one raises, you can figure if an ace hits that you have the top kicker unless there is a very tight opponent giving you resistance, plus you will often win an extra bet or two from the Ax limpers flop/turn. Obviously if the flop is [Jxx] you're in great shape.
If I get raised PF I just throw it away, unless its a raise from LP from someone that has a 15%+ PF raise %, then see above.
At least play AJs - this is way too good of a hand to just throw away.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
If I get raised PF I just throw it away, unless its a raise from LP from someone that has a 15%+ PF raise %, then see above.
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*cackle* How about us 10-12% PFR nut jobs?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
If I get raised PF I just throw it away, unless its a raise from LP from someone that has a 15%+ PF raise %, then see above.
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*cackle* How about us 10-12% PFR nut jobs? |
I've played probably > 100k hands 10nl - 200NL, I've probably seen 2 of these guys.
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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i just toss it, just like i throw AQ. what can you beat? nothing. you are strictly playing it for the nut flush potential, in which case theres no reason to fold ANY suited ace.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
you are strictly playing it for the nut flush potential.
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I like 2 pair, trips and sometimes I'll even showdown when I hit my Ace. Call me crazy....
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Do you never consider the postflop playability of your hand when deciding whether or not you raise preflop?
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Suited, connected and/or big cards are nice to have. |
I mean 33 UTG can often be "the best hand" preflop. But do I want to raise?
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
you are strictly playing it for the nut flush potential.
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I like 2 pair, trips and sometimes I'll even showdown when I hit my Ace. Call me crazy.... |
where are all the 'position is AS important as hand value' ppl when you need them? i just dont like playing utg with easily dominated hands.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I mean 33 can often be "the best hand" preflop. But do I want to raise?
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It depends 
Want to play a big pot?
Have position?
Want to steal the button? Blinds?
Are you getting checked to almost always after a PFR?
Are your opponents folding too much post-flop?
Do your oppoonents get really tight post-flop in unraised pots, but open it up once there in money in the center of the table?
How deep is the money?
How likely are they to re-raise you?
33 is certainly in my pre-flop raise range!
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
where are all the 'position is AS important as hand value' ppl when you need them? i just dont like playing utg with easily dominated hands.
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*raises hand*
UTG play is just an interesting topic. I've made some pretty serious adjustments there in the last month. Although I think some of it is very specific to the game I freqent.
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Ebene
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
*cackle* How about us 10-12% PFR nut jobs?
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With your raising range, I'd fold. Though I honestly haven't ran into anyone raising PPs the way you do, but my inclination would still be to fold - this isn't a hand I'm willing to risk a lot of money on, I'm most likely behind going into the flop, and if I hit I have no idea if you made a set and/or had me dominated going in.
Now if it was someone that would raise any two broadways on the button, and I knew that, well that would obviously be a favorable position but I'm generally not watching that close.
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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something ive done is stopped open-raising with AK in ep.
?
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Ebene
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
where are all the 'position is AS important as hand value' ppl when you need them? i just dont like playing utg with easily dominated hands.
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But if no one raises, you can be 95% certain you aren't dominated.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
*cackle* How about us 10-12% PFR nut jobs?
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With your raising range, I'd fold. Though I honestly haven't ran into anyone raising PPs the way you do, but my inclination would still be to fold - this isn't a hand I'm willing to risk a lot of money on, I'm most likely behind going into the flop, and if I hit I have no idea if you made a set and/or had me dominated going in.
Now if it was someone that would raise any two broadways on the button, and I knew that, well that would obviously be a favorable position but I'm generally not watching that close. |
Broadways, suited trash, pocket pairs, big pairs, big slick, whatever. It all just kinda blends together behind my sweat glazed eyelids in my gamble frenzy state! I have a hand I want to play and you've shown weakness. RAISE! We'll start talking about showdown value after you've shown more interest in your hand.
Although every now and then I'll button limp total crap if I think you really suck...
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
something ive done is stopped open-raising with AK in ep.
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Ohhh.... now we're getting somewhere. Why did you do this?
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ebene
Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
where are all the 'position is AS important as hand value' ppl when you need them? i just dont like playing utg with easily dominated hands.
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But if no one raises, you can be 95% certain you aren't dominated. |
if no one raises, youre taking a flop 5-6 handd in a lot of games. which can be good. but usually not when both blinds are in and flop comes J22.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
if no one raises, youre taking a flop 5-6 handd in a lot of games. which can be good. but usually not when both blinds are in and flop comes J22.
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Check/fold.
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
something ive done is stopped open-raising with AK in ep.
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Ohhh.... now we're getting somewhere. Why did you do this? |
hmm. i make changes if i lose a lot of money.
in ep with ak, an open raise will chase all the hands you want to play against, and identify all those you dont.
an openraise makes c-betting awkward when you are out of position to a flat caller(s). so you need to improve 9/10
if someone wakes up with jacks or queens in later p, and they play the hand properly, it may be difficult to even see a flop. played inversly, you can usually CALL most raises from a big pair if the pot hasnt been spiked by (yourself) or another player. this is just simple pot-management with any drawing hand.
finally, i like to 'see whats out there' just calling gives me the option to reraise later in the street if i think isolation is a good idea.
?
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
hmm. i make changes if i lose a lot of money.
in ep with ak, an open raise will chase all the hands you want to play against, and identify all those you dont.
an openraise makes c-betting awkward when you are out of position to a flat caller(s). so you need to improve 9/10
if someone wakes up with jacks or queens in later p, and they play the hand properly, it may be difficult to even see a flop. played inversly, you can usually CALL most raises from a big pair if the pot hasnt been spiked by (yourself) or another player. this is just simple pot-management with any drawing hand.
finally, i like to 'see whats out there' just calling gives me the option to reraise later in the street if i think isolation is a good idea.
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All of these ideas have merit, although we could spin up a 100 post thread arguing over many of them. Heck maybe we'll go there, but I have bigger plans than AK.
Lets say it's ideal to limp 22-99 pre-flop and folding is throwing away money. Lets say we also would like to limp stuff like AQ/AJs+/KQs/AK and we'll make the leap of faith that that is also the ideal way to play those hands.
TT-JJ are close, but probably still limps per that view of the world.
Once you make those assertions, why would we raise AA-QQ? If we didn't, they would certainly add some teeth to "iso-raise me at your own risk."
All of this changes when it's folded to us in the HJ or HJ+1 of course...
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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I open raise with AJ (o or s) in any position for the simple fact that it increases my PFR%, increasing my perceived range, and causing AK and JJ+ to make more $$$.
I don't expect to extract any significant profit from this hand in early tho.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I open raise with AJ (o or s) in any position for the simple fact that it increases my PFR%, increasing my perceived range, and causing AK and JJ+ to make more $$$.
I don't expect to extract any significant profit from this hand in early tho.
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Shush you! We'll get there, let this run another 4 or 5 replies.
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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Quote:
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Once you make those assertions, why would we raise AA-QQ? If we didn't, they would certainly add some teeth to "iso-raise me at your own risk."
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i think you are making a game-theory case for in fact at times raising the the other hands an appropriate portion of the time, or as you say, ALways limping in ep. this is assuming your opps actually pay attn to your opening requirements by position. i think this thread of thought is more suited to short handed play.
SS1 advocates limping your monsters early for the very reason of being able to limp your other hands with the omnipresent threat that it could be aces.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
SS1 advocates limping your monsters early for the very reason of being able to limp your other hands with the omnipresent threat that it could be aces.
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I missed that part. Will have to look for what 'old Doyle thinks about that.
The funny part of that book (well the NLHE section) is that the more you play, the more he makes sense....
Basically, my problems with raising EP has been chasing the wrong people out of the pot, that when people do fuck with me they tend to do it on the flop and the vast majority of my opponents fold in sheer terror to the flopped Ace.
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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Quote:
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I missed that part. Will have to look for what 'old Doyle thinks about that.
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i was just referring to this (p 490)
"when you limp-in with this hand (ssc's) in an early position...youre actually playing it like you would two Aces or two Kings. So, theres also a bit of deception there..."
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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I have never, nor will I ever, limp- raise with AA/KK, unless the situation seriously warrants a changeup.
I see this done 20 times a day and it is the most transparent play ever. The people who use this play doubtlessly have ultralow BB/Hand stats for AA/KK because of this.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
something ive done is stopped open-raising with AK in ep.
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Ohhh.... now we're getting somewhere. Why did you do this? |
I'm considering this too. It seems I play with 3 types of players, calling stations and floaters. When I raise, the TAGGs fold unless they have abetter hand, the calling stations call my c-bets and fold the turn and the floaters call my cbets unless there is an A or K on the flop. It seems c-bets are -EV overall and are cancelling out the value of the times that I hit. Yet check folding on the flop seems -EV especially for metagame considerations.
So what use is AK?
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I see this done 20 times a day and it is the most transparent play ever.
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Add AK to your LRR range?
Overbetting out of the blinds is pretty darn transparent too and I do it all of the time.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I see this done 20 times a day and it is the most transparent play ever.
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Add AK to your LRR range?
Overbetting out of the blinds is pretty darn transparent too and I do it all of the time. |
Obviously, if I see a thinking player LRR, then I won't be as positive that I am up against AA/KK. He could just be doing the old "LRR bluff." I am talking about the foolish player who habitually does this every time he has AA.
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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Quote:
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The funny part of that book (well the NLHE section) is that the more you play, the more he makes sense....
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im torn on the issue of picking up small pots so i can play big ones from behind. im struggling right now to play my break-even hands correctly for this theory to really work. but as mentioned, it doesnt seem to be worth it against non-observant opps.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Obviously, if I see a thinking player LRR, then I won't be as positive that I am up against AA/KK. He could just be doing the old "LRR bluff." I am talking about the foolish player who habitually does this every time he has AA.
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If a foolish player played like me pre-flop he would go broke pretty quick.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
Quote:
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The funny part of that book (well the NLHE section) is that the more you play, the more he makes sense....
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im torn on the issue of picking up small pots so i can play big ones from behind. im struggling right now to play my break-even hands correctly for this theory to really work. but as mentioned, it doesnt seem to be worth it against non-observant opps. |
I'm currently comming to grips with the fact I'm not getting the best of it in big pots as often as I would like to. However, I do pick up a shitload of little stuff. Which put me on the subject of pot control, which got me thinking about spots where I built a pot pretty fast out of position...
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by siknd
something ive done is stopped open-raising with AK in ep.
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Ohhh.... now we're getting somewhere. Why did you do this? |
hmm. i make changes if i lose a lot of money.
in ep with ak, an open raise will chase all the hands you want to play against, and identify all those you dont.
an openraise makes c-betting awkward when you are out of position to a flat caller(s). so you need to improve 9/10
if someone wakes up with jacks or queens in later p, and they play the hand properly, it may be difficult to even see a flop. played inversly, you can usually CALL most raises from a big pair if the pot hasnt been spiked by (yourself) or another player. this is just simple pot-management with any drawing hand.
finally, i like to 'see whats out there' just calling gives me the option to reraise later in the street if i think isolation is a good idea.
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As I posted already, these are my thoughts too. I'll also add that being reraised when you have AK sucks big time, you just lost your inititive in the hand and while you may be getting pot odds to call sometimes, your implied odds are exactly nil unless you're screwed on the flop. The only flop situation you like is the one that ends up screwing you over.
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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good post dan. did you think there was this much to it? lol. i think this is the 'lifetime to master' part.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If we didn't, they would certainly add some teeth to "iso-raise me at your own risk."
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could you explain what this means please?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If we didn't, they would certainly add some teeth to "iso-raise me at your own risk."
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could you explain what this means please? |
If I limp, it's less profitable to raise + c-bet any 2 because I'm mixing in effective odds hands with the implied odds hands.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I mean 33 can often be "the best hand" preflop. But do I want to raise?
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It depends
Want to play a big pot?
Have position?
Want to steal the button? Blinds?
Are you getting checked to almost always after a PFR?
Are your opponents folding too much post-flop?
Do your oppoonents get really tight post-flop in unraised pots, but open it up once there in money in the center of the table?
How deep is the money?
How likely are they to re-raise you?
33 is certainly in my pre-flop raise range! |
Sorry I ment to say 33 UTG can often be the best hand. Do I want to raise?
And my point was that hand equity I think should often not be the major consideration when deciding if we raise or not. Post flop playability is huge.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Sorry I ment to say 33 UTG can often be the best hand. Do I want to raise?
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I had a great run raising this because I owned any flop with an A, K or 3.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If we didn't, they would certainly add some teeth to "iso-raise me at your own risk."
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could you explain what this means please? |
If I limp, it's less profitable to raise + c-bet any 2 because I'm mixing in effective odds hands with the implied odds hands. |
This was already in place with small pps. Are you calling with SC's OOP?
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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