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AJo 5NL : Seeking Guidance

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TheBlueKnave

10-13-2009, 04:05 PM Post subject: AJo 5NL : Seeking Guidance

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2009

Location: Seattle, WA

Posts: 39

Villain here is 56/5/36 over just 17 hands.

I've been losing crazy money at showdown recently, and I'd appreciate your input on how I can make bets that help me figure out whether to take the hand all the way, or convince myself to lay it down.

I'm not sure this is the best example from today's debacle, but it was reasonable.

Also of note: this was after a long string of great hands that got me nothing because any bet caused the opposition to fold up. So I may have been a little tilted toward passive because of that. My *thinking* (wrongly, it turned out), after the SB checked the flop, was that he missed, or didn't have much. Certainly not two pairs!!

When villain put a small bet on the turn, I thought, ok, maybe he paired that two or five. He's been playing some bad hands, so it wouldn't surprise me. But I didn't want to chase him off. Just wanted to see how much I could get out of him.

Finally, at river, he makes a bigger bet. I've been passive, so I figure he's trying to chase me off the pot. I come over the top at him, but he comes back at me. So I figure, ok, yay. He's a fool, and I'll take home the bacon!

I was not correct. I was the fool.

My own deconstruction: I should have made a small-to-moderate bet at the flop. But what would he have done that would have convinced me to lay down this hand?

How do you lay down an attractive hand like this?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($5.45)
UTG ($10)
Hero (MP) ($5.40)
CO ($6.25)
Button ($11.23)
SB ($4.39)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A

, J

1 fold, Hero bets $0.17, 2 folds, SB calls $0.15, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.39) 2

, J

, A

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.39) 5

(2 players)
SB bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

River: ($0.79) 8

(2 players)
SB bets $0.55, Hero raises to $1.13, SB raises to $4.02 (All-In), Hero calls $2.89

Total pot: $8.83 | Rake: $0.40

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Kbryce23

10-13-2009, 04:28 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: Michigan

Posts: 152

This is a bad flop to slowplay. He is going to call with a bunch of crap on the flop(gutshots,flushdraws,pairs). I would bet bet bet and not even think about folding vs. this villian. Don't bet small either, I would bet close to pot on all streets. Quit trying to be fancy at these stakes just bet when you have a hand.

JKDS

10-13-2009, 04:32 PM Post subject: Re: AJo 5NL : Seeking Guidance

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: Chandler, AZ

Posts: 1,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueKnave

got me nothing because any bet caused the opposition to fold up.

after the SB checked the flop, was that he missed, or didn't have much.

But I didn't want to chase him off.

I've been passive, so I figure he's trying to chase me off the pot.

So I figure, ok, yay. He's a fool

How do you lay down an attractive hand like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InsspuvAmBs

RANGES RANGES RANGES RANGES RANGES RANGES. All of the statements i quoted dont show that you're thinking about them. Some are close, like "he checked flop, so he didnt have much" ie..."he checked flop, so his range was relatively weak". This doesnt mean we shouldnt bet though, cuz he can easily have hands that will call some bets.

@preflop: kind of weird size, fine though
@flop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy67cnDxQu0

This is an awesome flop for you, and an awesome flop for villain most of the time. Villain has tones of Ax hands in his range, as well as broadways, Jx's, and flush draws and all of these are willing to call a bet or two. By a bet, i dont mean some silly sized one either. Villain can't see your cards, he has no idea you have a monster, so bet like 30ish here, maybe 35.

Consider also that you want to get all your chips in the middle here, and that is much easier to do if we bet every street as opposed to only the turn/river or whatever. Ie, if we cbet flop, bet turn, and bet river its possible to get all in without villain raising, and since many players are calling stations...

Consider also that by checking the flop, we give villain infinite odds to draw out on us. Thats fine if he holds like Jx or Ax here, cuz we're still ahead (unless its like AK or AQ) but suppose he has a flush draw? Seeing a club on the turn or river would make us cry right?

Also, dont think about things like "how could i have layed this down", think instead, "was villains range wide enough to justify callin here"

@turn: as played raise. his range is still weaker than our hand

@river: as played, if i raise i raise bigger. minraises are cool and all, but you generally miss out on a ton of value cuz hands that call will generally also call a larger raise. I prob raise here too, we're up against a range of like A5, A2, A8, 22, 55 and maybe some jacks that fold to a raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

JR9477

10-13-2009, 05:04 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2008

Location: Iowa

Posts: 426

JR9477 is an unknown quantity at this point

You seem to be questioning you actions you take, here and in your blog, and you mention you are tilting a bit. Take some time to start working out ranges fully throughout the hands that bother you. Figure out if what you did was correct, and if not, what action to take in similar situations in the future.
When you can be confident in the action you take you won't be stressing yourself out by secondguessing yourself, and when things don't go your way, you'll likely have already accounted for that possibility.

You mentioned taking a couple days off, devote some time to studying before you come back. That way you can come back refreshed, enlightened, and eager to play.

(Josh)

ClairvoyantX

10-13-2009, 05:30 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2009

Posts: 32

I'm new and newbish but slowplaying flop like that is a big mistake. Even if he folds you make some profit. Many villains will peel a card at least IMO at NL2. By making a decent bet you take away his opportunity to draw a free card.

JKDS said it best. Don't play fancy, just value bet.

amir is cool

10-13-2009, 07:16 PM

#6 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: NY

Posts: 108

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0Y...eature=related

Quote:

[21:38] <dranger> WTF HAPPENED WHEN I WENT TO BOOT CAMP
[21:40] <kiwiMark> THERE IS A NEW PRESIDENT OF THE UNITES STATES CALLED BARACK OBAMA AND HE'S NOT VERY WHITE
[21:40] <kiwiMark> THIS IS NOT A LEVEL.

Micro2Macro

10-13-2009, 07:29 PM

#7 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: http://three-pair.com/

Posts: 4,463

Let's think about why we should bet the flop here.

"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Stacks

10-13-2009, 08:32 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

Just because villain checked flop doesn't mean his range is weak. If he's thinking about your range, he should check the flop with every strong hand he has. Why would he donk bet on a flop that you are sure to cbet with 90% of your range (or should)?

ClairvoyantX

10-13-2009, 10:40 PM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2009

Posts: 32

"My *thinking* (wrongly, it turned out), after the SB checked the flop, was that he missed, or didn't have much. Certainly not two pairs!! "

Am I getting something wrong? You have top two pairs, why "certainly not two pairs?". Two pairs don't beat you?

linaker

10-14-2009, 12:25 AM Post subject: Re: AJo 5NL : Seeking Guidance

#10 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2009

Location: UK

Posts: 70

[quote="TheBlueKnave"] I was not correct. I was the fool.[\quote]

You were thinking about the decisions you were making and about your opponent's hand which puts you way ahead of most at 2NL. You just need to improve your thinking.

The purpose of slowplaying the flop is to under represent your hand and give your opponent's hand a chance to improve, so you can win more of his money on later streets than if you just bet the flop. I think people concentrate on the former and forget the latter. Obviously, its not a good idea if you give your opponent a chance to beat you.

You checked behind on an AcJd2c flop. At higher levels, opponents are going to sniff the faintest trace of rat at his point. Why no continuation bet? But your check might have persuaded the villain to bet the turn with Arag, Jx, 2x or air, but maybe he would have called with these on the flop? Was he aggressive/passive?

The turn was a 5s, so 34 and 55 overtook you. But virtually any card on the turn was a scare card for you. K or Q would mean AK or AQ improving to beat you, a T makes KQ a straight and any club means you could be losing to a flush. As people like to call raises in the small blind with low/medium pocket pairs, a 9 or less could have made him a set. The only cards that you like to see on the turn are another A or J and they are the least likely to improve your opponent's hand, if he did not like the flop.

It was not a good flop to slowplay. If he did not like the flop, there are not many cards that he is going to like on the turn that do not beat you. On the other hand, there are a lot of hands in his range that would call a bet on the flop, as has been said.

You were thinking he's checked, so he does not have much and I don't want to bet and scare him off and make hardly anything with a good hand. Its understandable and probably everyone does it at some point, but it wasn't the right thinking in this case.

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