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AGGRESSIVE OR PASSIVE?..a tight passive player's questions

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BILLABONG

11-19-2004, 01:44 AM Post subject: AGGRESSIVE OR PASSIVE?..a tight passive player's questions

#1 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 102

Ok,so I wrote a long article asking some of this forums opinions towards whats best in the long run as far as, either limpin in with hands like queen king in late position and waiting to see if I hit the flop, so I can see the flop for cheap, since im goin to miss the flop usually. Or raising it in late position and betting the flop even if i miss IF* I have position. The only problem with raising a hand that everyone else before me has folded or limped in is, the site I play, the tables I sit at, and the players I play against are so loose, more then likely they're goin to call my bluff bet either believing that im bluffing, or they're goin to chase anyway ignoring pot odds. So I ask everyone this. With over card hands AQ,AJ,AT,KQ all off and* suited, do you guys recommend that either

1:most of the time,I limp in with these hands as long as everyone before me either folds or limps in (no raise),middle or late position, betting in late position only if I hit the flop. (which is usually what I do now)

2:a majority of the time I only limp in with these hands in middle position as long as everyone either folds or limps in before me,and raise with these hands in late position as long as everyone folds or limps in before me...then even if I miss, bluff the flop with a half pot size bet since im in position,either checking it out or hitting later on

3:the majority of the time I raise with these hands in middle position and* late position as long as everyone folds or limps in before me....then even if I miss the flop, bluff the flop with a half pot size bet IF im in late position (no one called my raise behind me),either checking it out or hitting later on

Notice that im sayin a majority of the time because every situation with a hand is different. Personally im never goin to do anything at a table always the same.

Thanks for everyone's comments

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Darby

11-19-2004, 04:18 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 209

I know what your saying, aggression somtimes goes unnoticed by bad players. when playing bad players, sometimes they are going to call anyway, so you need to think of that, however, when you hit, they are going to call anyway so consider that they are the ones who pay you off.

also, they people i play with slow play everything, which sometimes bites you, but more often than not they let you catch up

ex: someone with AA limps in from whatever position (they dont play position at all and probably woulnt see the importance of it) I also am limping some suited 2 gapper or something, I think 8-10 of clubs...

flop comes rags with 2 clubs, I check AA guy checks... turn is a blank, i throw out a smallish semi bluff bet, he calls, river i hit my flush, bet big, he says, "you picked a bad hand man" and calls, and my flush wins...

bad players expect AA to drag a big pot everytime unimproved, but its just one pair, in a multi-way pot that usually wont do it if 3 people see all 5 cards...

kidpoker22

11-20-2004, 09:30 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: D-Town

Posts: 43

First of all, the question you have asked has no answer. There is no "right" way to play those hand everytime. Playing a hand always depends on the texture of the game and the players you're up against.

The best I can offer would be...don't raise w/ AT, AJ (suited or not) or AQ from up front in a loose passive game. If you get called from behind you will be out of position to play the hand and pretty much force yourself to hit a big flop. The advantage of limping is that it disguises your hand. Many poor low limit NL HE players will see flops with any A or medium J or Q. If you catch good you will have them dominated. Of course be weary of a flop like AJT with a hand like AJ. You actually do NOT want, nor can you sustain much action with that hand on that flop.

Second, don't raise w/ hand from middle or late position if there has been more than 3 limpers. All you're going to do is create a monster pot and encourage people to run you down. Don't raise even w/ AK.

Finally, don't vary your bet on the flop too much. If you bet 1/2 the pot when you miss you either going to a.) give someone with a worse hand but a good draw a great price to make a hand. Or b.) give away information on the strength of your hand. Any good player is going to make you for being weak and take the pot away from you with anything. I know i would.

Hope this helps,
KP22

KP22

lonnie

11-20-2004, 10:01 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Quote:

Second, don't raise w/ hand from middle or late position if there has been more than 3 limpers. All you're going to do is create a monster pot and encourage people to run you down. Don't raise even w/ AK.

This is some of the worst advice I have seen at FTR lately. I have to write this opinion so someone doesn't see this garbage and actually believe it.

Raise AK for value and isolation. There's a pretty good chance you have the best hand at the moment and you don't want to let the blinds in cheap with garbage.

kidpoker22

11-20-2004, 11:55 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: D-Town

Posts: 43

Tell me how you can "value bet" an unmade hand then I'll agree with you.

KP22

kidpoker22

11-20-2004, 11:57 PM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: D-Town

Posts: 43

Oh, and secondly...you play $1/2...I don't even recognize criticism from someone who plays that small.

KP22

Humphrind

11-21-2004, 12:04 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidpoker22

Oh, and secondly...you play $1/2...I don't even recognize criticism from someone who plays that small.

Let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum. Everyone has equal insight here.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

Humphrind

11-21-2004, 12:10 AM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidpoker22

Tell me how you can "value bet" an unmade hand then I'll agree with you.

AK may not be an "unmade" hand. Pre-flop (which is when you and Lonnie are refering to) AK has a very good chance of being the best hand. And a value bet is a bet where you want callers, because you have the best hand.

There, betting with no pair can be a value bet.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

elipsesjeff

11-21-2004, 12:56 AM

#9 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

billabong, and kidpoker,

I suggest the both of you read Sklansky Small Stakes Holdem. Take some bonus money and read it. It will do you both some good.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

AllinLife

11-21-2004, 01:46 AM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Posts: 530

Quote:

billabong, and kidpoker,

I suggest the both of you read Sklansky Small Stakes Holdem. Take some bonus money and read it. It will do you both some good.

This is some of the worst advice I have seen at FTR lately. I have to write this opinion so someone this arrogant don't become good.

tell me kidpoker22, what limits do you play?

"Is there any chance I'm going to lay this 9-high baby down? That's really not my style."
- Gus Hansen

a500lbgorilla

11-21-2004, 04:01 AM

#11 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

I think you misquoted there. And can anyone find the link to the article i read where the professionals said the only difference between 10/20 and 1000/2000 is the color of the chips?

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

kidpoker22

11-21-2004, 07:26 AM

#12 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: D-Town

Posts: 43

OMG, this is like preaching to the deaf. I don't quote but, first off, AK is an unmade hand. 22 is the favorite over AK preflop. Second, value betting is where you want callers. The last thing I want is a huge pot with multi-way action with AK. I flop an A, I have no idea where I'm at. Now I have to tap the pot on the flop just to asses where I'm at and protect my hand.

But, I guess I should continue to value bet my hand in a multi-way pot right? In some cases it would be right for someone to call with middle pair and try to make 2 pair or trips.

Why not just limp? If you flop an A or K good. Bet the flop and take it from there. Your hand is disguised so hopefully you'll get action from a weaker A or K. Maybe you get outdrawn so don't fall in love with idea of top pair, top kicker. Dump it if someone makes a big play on the turn. It's simple if you can play post-flop. This is certainly more profitable than raising. But, whatever, you guys disagree I really don't care.

I play $10/20 and $15/30 on Stars. Come see me.

KP22

lonnie

11-21-2004, 09:44 AM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Quote:

Oh, and secondly...you play $1/2...I don't even recognize criticism from someone who plays that small.

I didn't post my criticism for you to recognize. I posted it so that newcomers don't think FTR is full of morons with bad poker advice.

Maybe your advice works at 15/30...not a whole lot of 15/30 online players here that I know of. There are quite a few at 2+2. Try posting your theory there.

Joke

11-21-2004, 08:22 PM

#14 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 131

way are you all so bitchy? Who cares whats the best play, raising AK or limping it, there is probably good points in both plays. I personaly newer limps with AK, but then I dont play highstakes poker eather so...

/sry spelling, English isnt my cup of tea!

bigred

11-23-2004, 06:23 AM

#15 (permalink)

PROFESSIONAL TROLL

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: Nest of Douchebags

Posts: 2,184

I didn't know there was english tea, I like rasberry. Anyway, Daniel Nagreanu says your out, kp22

Edit: No idea why I wrote this, beer makes you say funny things. I'm just leaving it because it's funny.

LOL OPERATIONS

|~|ypermegachi

11-23-2004, 06:32 AM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

kidpoker...you shouldn't criticize others just because you play higher limits. for all i care the skill level at that level is probably the same as 1/2. this is what i conclude from all the 2+2 players who quad table at 15/30 at 3BB/100 win rates.

btw, all you're doing is making less money by limping with your big hands. you build big pots preflop with AK and AQ because your opponents have crappy hands anyways. they are loose! they don't have good hands. that's why they make 2 pair with a 92o in their hand.

all those big hands win well over 50% of the time. AK vs 22 being the underdog isn't true because the 22 will fold to any raise if they didn't hit the set, and that goes for most pocket pairs when lots of overcards flop. AKs is a big winner because you can flop TPTK, or a nut flush draw as backup. you can win shitloads of money more if you build pots.

Corey

11-23-2004, 01:09 PM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Posts: 1,349

mmmm boobies

Corey

xbones

11-23-2004, 01:17 PM

#18 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: Isle of Man, GB

Posts: 264

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

I didn't know there was english tea, I like rasberry.

Yes, we have all sorts of tea over here, including English Breakfast Tea

YNWA

bigred

11-23-2004, 02:38 PM

#19 (permalink)

PROFESSIONAL TROLL

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: Nest of Douchebags

Posts: 2,184

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corey

mmmm boobies

Look at em jiggle! Don't like mike4066 see those, he gets addicted to softcore porn.

LOL OPERATIONS

ihategnomes

11-23-2004, 04:27 PM Post subject: .02

#20 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: Louisiana

Posts: 1,225

Well I can see the value in both, and I have played AK both ways. I dont care what limit you are at, but you can really never play the same hand the same way from the same position and expect to make money. AK is not a great multi-way pot kind of hand. If you have early limpers who like to limp then make them pay. A lot to think about is your table image as well and how the other players will intrepit your plays. At the lower levels you cant be fancy and out play your opponents, you have to show down the best hand. I am a very tight player who mixes it up after the blinds go up. BTW are we talking MTT,single or MT SNG or a standard ring game? I believe this would change my approach on the situation. I play $20 2 table SnG's and 5/10 limit ring games. Is this considered low limit? Not so much the limit ring games but the SnG's? I have noticed that I can outplay opponents at $20, but the $10 and $5 tend to be hard to get "respect". I play mostly on pokerstars. Also when limpers come into play you have to think about equity, folding equity of the opponents hands as well as your own. Gus Hansen is superb at applying this strategy, of course he comes from a backgammon world where equity is everything. On and end note, you can't go broke in an unraised pot, nor can you figure out your opponents cards by just calling, as they could call with anything, but what will they call a raise for??????? If they do re-reraise you, convince them you had a super tough laydown before you fold/if you fold, a lot of times they will show there hand which = more information.

11-23-2004, 09:37 PM

#21 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

I am shocked at what FTR is beginning to show signs of becoming. This post is a prime example.

FTR has built a reputation of being a friendly, helpful poker discussion site. Now that we are getting excess in members we are starting to get ones that cause trouble and arguments.

This is NOT what FTR is about. We don't throw personal attacks at each other in FTR, we don't boast about what limits we play at FTR.

If we do have differing opinions we make our points in a CIVIL way. Again, we do not insult each other. This is the way it always was.

Kidpoker, and every new member at that, let's keep FTR this way. Let's keep FTR the most helpful NL Holdem website out there.

Fnord

11-24-2004, 12:39 AM

#22 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

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Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Are we talking Limit or No-Limit here? It's unclear.

AK is a far better hand than 22 in either game.

Limping good hands in limit is bad. Open limping period outside of UTGish is bad. Deep Money No Limit is a much fuzzier proposion as most of the money is going in post-flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

11-24-2004, 02:51 AM

#23 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidpoker22

AK is an unmade hand.

It's the best hand if no one has a pair. Against most pairs, even if you play it strong on the flop without a pair you have a reasonable chance to catch up on the turn or river.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidpoker22

22 is the favorite over AK preflop.

Silly argument. A2o is a favorite over KQs, which would you rather have? The problem with 22 is that unless you hit a third 2, it's difficult/expensive to figure out where you're at. Also, your pair of 2s is easily counterfit (sp).

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidpoker22

Second, value betting is where you want callers. The last thing I want is a huge pot with multi-way action with AK. I flop an A, I have no idea where I'm at. Now I have to tap the pot on the flop just to asses where I'm at and protect my hand.

I want callers for as much of their stack as possible! If you fail to raise pre-flop you give amazing implied odds to any pair and perhaps profitable implied odds to a wider range of hands depending on how deep the money is. Also, with a lot of money behind, it's difficult to cut off implied odds for gut-shots, etc. on the flop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidpoker22

Why not just limp? ... This is certainly more profitable than raising. But, whatever, you guys disagree I really don't care.

It depends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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