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Advice on betting on the River

  
 
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G3O
Old 06-22-2005, 05:40 PM     Post subject: Advice on betting on the River #1 (permalink)  

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Could anyone offer some advice on how to approach betting on the River? Lately I have found myself in the following situations that I'm not sure how to handle:

1) Me and one other player see the river. I have what I think is vulnerable, but probably the best hand. ie. TPGK or similar. When acting first, I struggle with whether/ how much I should bet, because I fear the raise. When acting last, I get similar feelings because I fear the check-raise, and wind up wishing I never got myself into this situation.

2) Me and two or three other players see the river. I have a strong hand like trips. I have been betting strong, and the others have been passively calling. I wouldn't normally be worried, but now the river brings a flush or straight card. On any position, do I bet on the river ? Do I call a bet?

3) I play alot of home games against a particular person that plays "TV- Style" poker. He watches Gus Hansen go allin with 53 off suit and thinks he can do it too. Usually, I just play super passive against him and trap him for all his chips. I have alot of his money, so the strategy is working out for me so far. Anyhow, I was playing him heads-up last weekend, and was trying to trap him by passively calling his bets with my two pair (AT). The river, however, brought the clubs flush card and he moved all-in. I closed my eyes and I called him. Sure enough he was bluffing with his hearts suited connectors and he lost the pot. This case worked out because I know the player, but my question is, how to handle large river bets when trying to trap an unknown super-aggressive opponent?
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EricE
Old 06-22-2005, 06:13 PM #2 (permalink)  
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1) Sometimes things end up that way and you just have to show it down. If it happens a lot though I would think you are playing too loose. Play tighter and you will end up with less hands that end up in this situation.
2) Your only help is the read you have on the character(s). Would he/they call all your bets with a draw? Is it likely you are out gunned even if someone didn’t make the flush/straight? With three other players, I would check and showdown cheaply at this point.
3) Tough call. Your read on the player is > cards.
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storm75m
Old 06-22-2005, 06:37 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 I read somewhere that betting the river with a marginal hand is often a big mistake that people make very often. Try searching this forum, I think it's been discussed before. I've started checking the river more often, and I believe it's saving me money. (When you have a marginal hand, usually the only hand that will call your river bet is a hand that beats yours) Just remember there are only two reasons to bet on the river, when you're sure you have the best hand and you are trying to extract more money, or you are trying to bluff your opponent out of a pot.
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drmcboy
Old 06-22-2005, 07:15 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Doyle discusses betting the river in SS and says he will bet with a top pair like hand if he's 'reasonably sure' he has the best hand... but that's Doyle and his reasonably sure is better than our absolutely positive.
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TLR
Old 06-23-2005, 10:19 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 My 2 cents

1. With a marginal hand at the river you will probably only get called by a hand that beats you, so if I am the last person to speak I would often check the river in this situation.
However if I am the first to act you should ask yourself what would you do if he will bet, because your checking is a sign of weakness. If you are willing to call a bet then you are better off betting yourself, so if I am first to act in heads up I would bet.

2. This is usually a situation you would not want to be in, which means that you have to bet the flop and turn on sucj dangerous boards hard enough to shake off the chasers, if somebody did chase and hit the hand you are in trouble, so the play here depends a lot on the read you have on the players


 
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Irisheyes
Old 06-23-2005, 11:32 AM #6 (permalink)  
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1) When first to act, bet. If you check then he's gonna bet and take the pot. If you bet and he reraises you should consider folding cos your probably not gonna win anyway. At least if you bet you have a better idea of where you stand. It doesn't have to be a big bet. In late position I would consider checking his check depending on how commited he is to the pot and stack size. You dont want to bet and then have him pull you all-in.

2) Again make a bet to find out where you stand, if you get reraised fold. You should try not to end up in this position by making big enough flop and turn bets that he doesn't have the odds to continue.
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Staresy
Old 06-23-2005, 12:05 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Maybe u could post a few HH's where you've been unsure of what to do
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G3O
Old 06-23-2005, 01:48 PM #8 (permalink)  

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Ok Staresy. This is not the best HH example, but it should do.
Scenario:
It's the final 3 of a 10 player SNG. I am Sheik Geo. The player Cami is a 'jackal' type. Ontilt800 is a calling station, but could be made to fold to a big bet when a scare card hits. I considered raising pre-flop, but I did not like my position, plus I wanted to set a trap for Cami.

**Hand #42064842 begins**
Ontilit800 receives the dealer button
Sheik Geo posts small blind 25
cami posts big blind 50
You are dealt[Ah,Jd]
Ontilit800 calls 50
Sheik Geo calls 25
cami checks
Flop is dealt [Kh,Jc,8s]
Sheik Geo bets 125
cami calls 125
Ontilit800 calls 125
Turn is dealt [Ts]
Sheik Geo bets 250
cami calls 250
Ontilit800 folds
River is dealt [5c]
Sheik Geo bets 75
cami goes all in 0
cami raises 1405
Sheik Geo folds
cami mucks
cami wins 1175 from main pot
**Hand #42064842 ends**
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G3O
Old 06-23-2005, 02:38 PM #9 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLR
...you should ask yourself what would you do if he will bet, because your checking is a sign of weakness. If you are willing to call a bet then you are better off betting yourself, so if I am first to act in heads up I would bet.
I like this. Thank you.
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drmcboy
Old 06-23-2005, 03:32 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 3 handed SNG is very different from a full table SNG, which is different still from a ring game. I think we need more specifics here.

You must raise 3 handed with AJ - bad position is not a reason to limp, it's a reason to raise, because you can win the pot right now and eliminate your positional disadvantage.
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biondino
Old 06-23-2005, 03:40 PM #11 (permalink)  
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The only time you should bet so much less on the river is because you're going to re-raise. The 5 strengthens your hand, if anything - it doesn't add to his straight chances, it doesn't pair his ace or queen - he could have a 5 in hand but it doesn't matter as your wussy bet gives him every excuse he needs to push.

My guess is he had a king and you were always going to be beaten. But the problem is you didn't give him a reason to beat you with cards.
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G3O
Old 06-23-2005, 04:21 PM #12 (permalink)  

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G3O
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
3 handed SNG is very different from a full table SNG, which is different still from a ring game. I think we need more specifics here.

You must raise 3 handed with AJ - bad position is not a reason to limp, it's a reason to raise, because you can win the pot right now and eliminate your positional disadvantage
Ok. What would you like to know?
I hear you about the raise. I was so focused on trying to trap Cami, that I neglected some basics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
The only time you should bet so much less on the river is because you're going to re-raise.
So your advice is to lure opponents with a weak but non-min bet when your intention is to reraise? Interesting tactic. Typically I try to check-raise, but i don't usually get too many bites. In the specific hand above, would you have checked or made a bigger bet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
The 5 strengthens your hand, if anything - it doesn't add to his straight chances, it doesn't pair his ace or queen - he could have a 5 in hand but it doesn't matter as your wussy bet gives him every excuse he needs to push.

My guess is he had a king and you were always going to be beaten. But the problem is you didn't give him a reason to beat you with cards.
Fair enough. Nothing of the sort came to my mind when I saw the 5. Thanks for reminding me to pay attention. After the flop I was too busy trying to shake them off with my MPTK. Then I really made my bed on the semi-bluff when the T hit the turn. Did I play bad poker up to the River and that's what got me into that mess, or was it the 'wussy' river bet that cost me? Maybe I should have checked. Personally, I think this guy would have bet with nothing anyway.
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SinkRox
Old 07-04-2005, 07:59 PM #13 (permalink)  
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your turn bet looks quite small, typically you should bet at least 1/2 the pot, though 2/3 is better if you wana drive him off there. If you'd have raised preflopyou may of got to HU and being preflop aggressor means theres even more chance he'll fold to your continuation bet on the flop. Your river bet is pointless with this weak hand, either check and hope he checks behind or make a larger more respected bluff [again 2/3 of the pot may look better than a desperate all-in].
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