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Advice with AQo & AJo please

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Big Dazz

07-01-2007, 02:29 PM Post subject: Advice with AQo & AJo please

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Portsmouth, England

Posts: 45

HI,

I'm unsure how to play AQo & AJo when on the blinds.

The room is Bet365, $10. Very loose, 6 players regularly in the flop, 1 very LAG player who kept mini-raising PF and raising up the flop with crap.

I had AJo BB - when it came round to me, there was 1 mini raise and 5 callers. What did I do????? I folded - with the reason that:

1) I'm out of position
2) with so many callers and a LAG a CB wont be effective
3) these callers mean even if I hit TPTK it wont hold out against the flushes, st8 & sets.

Correct to fold???

Cheers

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Pelion

07-01-2007, 02:44 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

Bad fold.

Id call.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

overflow

07-01-2007, 03:02 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Posts: 356

Always call with AJo when it's minraised, there are 5 callers behind you and you complete the preflop action with your decision. This is a simple pot odds problem, there are 11 or 11.5BB in the pot and it's costing you one BB to see the flop. You're barely ever going to be over a 10:1 dog (see also, AA vs. AJ). I'll post some pokerstove stats later today.

overflow

07-01-2007, 03:37 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Posts: 356

When this happens find a way to felt 2pair+ and also learn to get away from TPGK/TPTK FAST when there's this many callers preflop and your lead bet gets raised. If you're calling a flop raise, you better be getting 4:1+ (pot odds + implied odds) with less than 2pair (which you probably won't be) to draw to 5 outs.

With marginal hands OOP you want to risk a little to win a lot. Not risk a lot to win a lot. Playing upfront with a pair on a strong board in a multiway pot is every poker player's bane.

Pelion

07-01-2007, 03:43 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

Quote:

Originally Posted by overflow

If you play badly you might have worse than 10:1 implied odds.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Chopper

07-01-2007, 04:22 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i'd trust the guys with math backing them up before me, and i am not familiar w/ Bet365 other than to say i've heard its loose/soft.

but, to me, AJ is a "trap" hand...too easily dominated. i raise it when folded to, but usually limp it behind others...unless i have specifics telling me otherwise.

however, if suited i raise it up in your example, but offsuit, i limp...or actually lean towards folding for the following:

you are easily dominated
you are oop
you are forcing yourself to cbet into 5 others
you have a LAG that has minraised frequently (he will have a hand sometime)
offsuit is crap in a pot with more than 3 players...can you isolate down to this with a raise? if so, then, i raise, too.

those are just a few "red flags" going off in my head immediately. w/o a specific read...not PT #'s...i would prolly fold on a loose table.

but, like i said, if someone has the math to prove me wrong...and i'm sure the math would...you need to put more weight on their answer.

this is a long term game. however, in a loose situation, i tend to avoid marginal situations, and play more aggressively when i do play a hand...with a significant edge i can be confident in (not just the nuts

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Big Dazz

07-01-2007, 05:32 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Portsmouth, England

Posts: 45

OK, thanks for the replies.

Quote:

When this happens find a way to felt 2pair+ and also learn to get away from TPGK/TPTK FAST when there's this many callers preflop and your lead bet gets raised.

Im not worried dealing with my lead bet being raised - I fold. Its the one that always shafts me - I lead they call, I lead they call, I lead they raise big/AI, I fold!!. . .

Quote:

This is a simple pot odds problem, there are 11 or 11.5BB in the pot and it's costing you one BB to see the flop

Ok - I understand this. I was thinking more long term and -EV. I read somewhere on this site (i cant find at the mo) that against so many callers and OOP, even if I play every hand well it is still a long term loser or marginal winner at best. The feild will simply chase me out long term.

Quote:

but, to me, AJ is a "trap" hand...too easily dominated

Yeh - at the mo this is how I see it especiall from SB - gotta play well every time it comes to make +EV.

AJo, AQo & AKo are at present my biggest and most prolific losers. I'll put up a thread asking for advice on how to play them post flop as this is a definate leak.

Quote:

Bad fold.

Id call.

Why???????????

Cheers

Ash256

07-01-2007, 05:36 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: UK

Posts: 1,760

Fuck it, I call, I'm getting insane pot odds..

Just don't put more money into the pot unless you make a really good hand, don't bother with top pair.

If the LAG is really really insane preflop and thinks any picture cards or whatever are good enough to get it in with preflop, I reraise hard and try to get it all in preflop with him, but that doesn't often happen.

Listen to my music

Pelion

07-01-2007, 05:52 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

lol sorry it was late and i guess i didnt explain that too well

.

Basically what overflow said. You're getting huge odds and at the very least you have a draw to a good 2pair or possible straight. Its hard to lose alot of money with this hand. You flop top pair, play a medium pot and fold if you get too many callers or someone gets aggro.

You flop 2pair+ and you can play fairly confidently on alot of boards. You are out of position but if you play well you should be able to play it profitably although it is fairly marginal.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Unibomber14

07-01-2007, 11:13 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: The future

Posts: 321

MP to LP, I raise hard to thin the field. EP, I like the call. If an Ace or Jack flops, Bet/Fold. If I flop two pair+, on a loose table, in a family pot, I try and get in a check raise.

"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."

Fnord

07-02-2007, 07:49 AM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I would re-raise here. Probably 20x the Big Blind, maybe 30-40x if the LAgg is a big sucker. Felt any piece of the flop. If you just have pot behind, shove any flop. You're way ahead of the ranges here and should feel good about stacking off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Chopper

07-02-2007, 08:27 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

off topic: Fnord, i suppose thats your "hero" in your av?

or just a revisit?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Fnord

07-02-2007, 08:31 PM

#13 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

off topic: Fnord, i suppose thats your "hero" in your av?

or just a revisit?

Or just the kind of person that can set-up great humor.

Bahgdad Bob is another re-occuring avatar theme for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

SHAKE

07-03-2007, 01:46 AM

#14 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2007

Posts: 278

What about hands like off suited broadway (including AJ AT) not including AK AQ, whats the best line when the pot is raised when you in the sb. Do we re raise or fold. Lets say the raiser is unknown and your 90% sure the B will fold without a hand.

How much changes if there one extra caller or your quite sure the BB will call.

sejje

07-03-2007, 02:21 AM

#15 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 883

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Dazz

I don't understand this. Maybe you heard that about a limit game?

Clearly you want people drawing against you. You just make 'em pay. The field can't chase you out long term, you just don't allow for that to happen by sizing your bets properly.

Chopper

07-03-2007, 05:49 PM

#16 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHAKE

i hate to say, "it depends.." but it sorta does. is the raiser loose? aggro? rocky? nitty? all makes a difference.

to me, if i have higher-end A's, like A9+, i RR a lot of times from the sb in a 6max game...not so much in fr. the sb is one of my favorite spots to play AXo when folded around. but to a raise, if i am quite sure BB will fold most marginal stuff, i will go ahead and isolate the raiser...if he's too frisky.

if the raiser is solid, i give a lot more priority to position...which i dont have from the sb...and lean towards a fold. even with AJs. i just dont like being both dominated and oop in cash games.

in tourneys, its a whole different story...you just dont get a lot of chances with those darned blinds always on the rise.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Fnord

07-03-2007, 07:41 PM

#17 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Folding AJo to a min raise with money behind (90bb+) isn't an option. We're going to hit nut-like hands that catch other hands second best often enough to peek at a flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Big Dazz

07-05-2007, 07:22 PM

#18 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Portsmouth, England

Posts: 45

OK - thanks for your input

Quote:

I would re-raise here. Probably 20x the Big Blind, maybe 30-40x if the LAgg is a big sucker.

The LAgg was a sucker!! So, in goes $4 (40% of my stack) the LAgg calls. Pot = $9 approx. Odds are I miss the flop, what now???

CB - but how much? Half pot bet is $4.5 (that's my stack gone). LAgg will probably call.

If I check, LAgg will most certainly bet - i fold.

CrackingYou

07-10-2007, 03:51 PM

#19 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: All in the nuts.

Posts: 35

First thing that popped into my mind was re-raise 4-5x's the BB. If the table is loose, then a mini-raise isn't scaring anyone away that would've called the blinds anyway, so most likely you folded to a lot of shit hands. I don't care how L&AG you are, you're not calling 4-5x's the BB when there's alreadybeen a mini raise. Not to mention, With a re-raise, the SB would most likely of folfed and then you just nabbed position aswell with a strong hand.

I would indefinitely bet out on the flop to follow the image of having a big hand. Even if you hit. The biggest mistake I use to make was sucking at slow playing. I want my opponent to catch but not completely for free.....

Feels like I'm climbing in a tree.

Fnord

07-10-2007, 05:20 PM

#20 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Dazz

Shove. LAgg will miss and being all-in shuts him out from bluffing you. Even if LAgg calls with a pair you will probably have outs to suck back out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

overflow

07-10-2007, 05:32 PM

#21 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Posts: 356

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrackingYou

Raising to 0.50 or 0.60 cents in a pot that already has over 10BB in it has to be negative EV, if the initial raiser calls, and the first cold caller calls, all 3 other players are going to call too for pot odds. This can't possibly be +EV.

It's raise to $1.50-$2.00 or flat call.

In this instance I'm leading towards flatcalling, again you complete the preflop action with your call, and there's nothing better at microstakes than flopping a monster in a 5way pot.

CrackingYou

07-10-2007, 06:09 PM

#22 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: All in the nuts.

Posts: 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by overflow

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrackingYou

You're telling me, that with a minimum raise on the table out of position, but with 5 callers, if that situation is then re-raised by 5x's that everyone will call?

Ridiculous my friend.

Feels like I'm climbing in a tree.

overflow

07-10-2007, 08:25 PM

#23 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Posts: 356

You said 4-5x BB bro, not 4-5x the raise.

What you were trying to say is "Raise to 0.80 or 1.00" but you actually said "Raise to 0.40 or 0.50". And I'm saying I agree with Fnord, you either raise up to between $1.30 and $2.00 to thin the field, or you flatcall and hope to flop a monster.

In this case with something like AJo or AQo I'm more inclined to complete the action preflop, and see a good cheap flop getting great odds then trying to make a crazy raise OOP to thin the field.

If you want to lower the raise amount, $1.25-$1.75 is probably a good range. But you have to go higher than $0.80-$1.00 if you actually want to get any of the cold callers out.

CrackingYou

07-11-2007, 02:59 AM

#24 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: All in the nuts.

Posts: 35

I didn't realize the blinds were so low.

If I'm at a $25/50, someone raises OOP to 100, and I then come over the top with a raise to 250(5x's BB) people are folding.

I'll agree with the 150-2.00 though....then again with stakes that small people are going to play bullshit hands regaurdless.

Feels like I'm climbing in a tree.

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