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sejje

12-02-2005, 12:18 AM Post subject: Acting Out of Position

#1 (permalink)

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I've gotten to the point where I DESPISE acting out of position.

If I get AK UTG I think "aww shit." I'm very content to fold AJ UTG. I only like small pairs out of position, and I'd much rather have them in position as well, because you can easily make more. I just don't mind 'em cause they're easy to play out of position.

Anyone else fall into this boat? Almost scared to play?

Sometimes I find myself limping fairly big hands...I think I enjoy being able to fold in a small pot when I miss. Also when I raise AK and hit, bet out and get raised, I can almost never fold, beaten or not. I think it's a leak, although I haven't checked to see if it's losing OOP.

Anyone have a remedy?

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Fnord

12-02-2005, 12:47 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Raise more hands.

In any game worth playing in, my EP openers are:
AA-22, AK, AJs+, KQs

If I feel frisky I add:
ATs, KJs, QJs

I NEVER open for a limp outside of exceptional table conditions.

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sejje

12-02-2005, 01:07 AM

#3 (permalink)

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My biggest reasons for hating it are scenarios like:

1) cbets not getting folds.
2) AQ getting called down by AK.
3) People slowplaying behind.

Also, I don't open-limp a lot. I just don't play as many hands. Certainly not AT, KQ, KJ in EP.

Fnord

12-02-2005, 01:13 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Be more selective about c-betting then. You can't run over every table.

Raise to thin the field and build a pot because 1 out of 3 or so times you WILL hit, put down a big bet and have less money behind if you're put to a tough decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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Lukie

12-02-2005, 06:37 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Fnord, what is your take on AQo from EP?

Coming from a player who will open-raise more hands then myself from EP, I'm surprised this isn't one of your normal opening hands. I will gladly raise AQo UTG on even the toughest tables.

Also, I'm not a big fan of open limping myself either, but there is certainly a time for it. Limp 22 UTG on a table where players can't sniff out sets.. why not?

Fnord

12-02-2005, 06:55 AM

#6 (permalink)

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*shrug* maybe I worry about balance too much and not enough about exploitation.

Had this hand hit early this morning.

I raise 44 UTG with a LAggy image (build up to 2 buy-ins really fast via c-bets and a suck-out against a short-buy.)

5 callers!

Flop is QJ4 and AJs stacks off to take a stand against me. I think he finds a laydown if I just limp it.

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DogOnMySide

12-02-2005, 10:53 AM

#7 (permalink)

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That's great, Fnord... but it's a very specific example of a bigger problem. And Sejje did say initially that pp's are okay.

Sejje I know exactly what you mean. I never limp AK/AQ in EP but I do think to myself "i'll probably have to give this up on the flop"

It seems SO weak to me, raising preflop and then checking postflop...

It's the "I don't know where I am" that gets me.

I am definitely trying to bear this in mind... i've read Aokrongly's "Counterplay" strategy and have been trying to use bits of that for play in EP. Dont get too involved in small pots... try and make a hand really cheaply, then raise the crap out of them. It's very different from my usual thinking though.

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BankItDrew

12-02-2005, 06:28 PM

#8 (permalink)

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In EP I will raise 5xBB with:

AJ, AQ, AK, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA

In EP I will limp with:

99, 88, 77, 66, 55, 44, 33, 22, QJs, KJs, KQs

If you are dealt AK in EP, chances are that you have the best hand, so represent it.

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underminedsk

12-02-2005, 06:42 PM

#9 (permalink)

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I'm also having some trouble with this. Right now hands I will raise with from EP are only AA, KK, QQ.

hands I limp from EP: KQs, AJs, KJs, JJ-22

I dont open with AK anymore because I hate raising 6xbb, going 3 way to a flop in first action, missing my TPTK, and having no idea where I stand. I never know whether I should continue or not, because If I get called, I'm pretty much dead in the water outside of the occasional read of weakness later in the hand. I wish I could open for a raise with more hands, but I worry about the pots getting out of control when I have mediocre holdings like TPGK.

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Fnord

12-02-2005, 07:02 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

If you are dealt AK in EP, chances are that you have the best hand, so represent it.

With deep money at a full table, this thinking might be flawed. Arguably there are only 3 or so real best hands pre-flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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Miffed22001

12-02-2005, 07:38 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Depends too much upon opposition for me.
Im happy to 5bb AK from utg and check a missed flop.
Im happy to 4bb AQ from UTG and check a mised flop.
Im happy to raise open raise any pp in ep/mp for the amount of times i can buy the post flop pot.
Im not keen on opening for a limp unless i know the opps are bad enough not to recognise what i have or the table permits it.

BankItDrew

12-02-2005, 09:10 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

If you are dealt AK in EP, chances are that you have the best hand, so represent it.

With deep money at a full table, this thinking might be flawed. Arguably there are only 3 or so real best hands pre-flop.

deep money? why is deep money a factor is the quality of AK verses a random hand? When I pick up AKo in any position, I say to myself: "Self, you probably have the best hand right now.

Fnord

12-02-2005, 09:29 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

deep money? why is deep money a factor is the quality of AK verses a random hand? When I pick up AKo in any position, I say to myself: "Self, you probably have the best hand right now.

Because you'll lose more when you're 2nd best, win less when you're good and are more vulnerable to laying down the best hand.

edit: Just looked up your other posts. The lack of experience above maybe NL25 explains the gaps in your thinking pretty well.

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aislephive

12-03-2005, 03:25 AM

#14 (permalink)

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I play 25 NL 6 max on UB, so UTG is different than UTG 10 handed. I'll fold an unsuited AT or worse, and play an ATs or better. I always come in for a raise in this spot. AJo is a solid hand and it should be raised from EP. I'm extremely aggressive in late position. If I have a limper and I'm on the button with A8o I'll usually raise to isolate on the limper and then bet out on the flop and take it down. If there's a few limpers I'll just limp a lot of decent hands that I'd normally raise with like AJ from the SB. I'll play AK no matter what position I am in, and I'll play it for a raise every time. It's just too good of a hand to not play.

And yes, if you can't fold when you get raised with just ace high, that is a huge leak in your game. Making a stab at a pot, especially after you raised pre-flop, is almost always a good move. But be prepared to shut down when you meet resistance. Some flops also just aren't good to bet at, and some are. Always be aware of your table image as well, the more aggressive you are you'll notice some players calling you down with ace high or bottom pair. Take advantage of these players whenever you can.

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