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Vinland
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05-01-2009, 08:00 PM
Post subject: AA vs station...help me on river
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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Villain was very active and fairly passive. I believe his stats were somewhere around 75/0/.5 over about 50 hands.
I had his range on basically high cards, mid-PP, and a pair to the board.
He just played anything so his range is wide IMO. His min reraise had me worried a bit incase he setted but I knew that was a small chance compared to the miriad of other cards he could hold.
What is a proper value bet on river? I dont want to blow him out of the water.....just punch a little hole is fine...
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($0.98)
UTG ($5)
MP1 ($1)
MP2 ($2.98)
CO ($6.41)
Button ($4.47)
Hero (SB) ($4)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A , A
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.06
Flop: ($0.20) 5, 8, 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.14, MP2 raises to $0.28, Hero calls $0.14
Turn: ($0.76) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.24, Hero calls $0.24
River: ($1.24) 4 (2 players)
[color=#CC3333]Hero ?
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Schya
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 129
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If you have him pinned on worse then i dont believe there is any scaring him away. He already Raised and fired again. Feels like Trips to me. But $1.00 bet if you feel ahead?
EDIT: Didnt look at the stats before!! I'd personally raise $1.00 - pot here
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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c/c on turn is way too weak especially on this soaking wet board. any club, any heart, 7, 6, or T and maybe more scare cards on the river prevent you from pushing river. i'd get the pot to a size where calling/pushing on river is an easy play regardless of what card may come (a raise to a dollar makes a PSB river bet put him all in). or maybe just jam right here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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TAGurit
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 56
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i'd put him all in here and expect to see A9 or TT+
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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3bet flop to $1 and put him in on a turn brick. minraises, to me, are sets or blocks. at 2NL, i am not going to shy away from felting overpairs most times.
imo, this was a very timid way to play this hand.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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1.) Raise more PF. There were two limpers in front and you only raised to 4xbb? My standard (same for a lot of others I know) are 4x+1bb per limper, so here you "should" have made it 12 cents PF.
2.) Shitty flop for your hand, minraises (like chopper said) = virtual nuts/weak bullshit. This is why I think 3betting his minraise is bad. Why blow out the junk in his range? He's shown to be a station, why does he start raising now? What hands that hes minraising that call your 3bet are you ahead of?
PF he limp/called, which for his stats = damn near ATC. He can easily have straight/two pair/set/pair + draw/tons of other shit. I just think flatting flop, b/f turn is best line. These guys (stations) just don't minraise very often so I don't think you are going to be ahead when he calls/raises your 3bet.
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call minraise, donk turn sounds good to me
as played I pot the river
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
1.) Raise more PF. There were two limpers in front and you only raised to 4xbb? My standard (same for a lot of others I know) are 4x+1bb per limper, so here you "should" have made it 12 cents PF.
2.) Shitty flop for your hand, minraises (like chopper said) = virtual nuts/weak bullshit. This is why I think 3betting his minraise is bad.
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1) good point. actually, 2NL donks will call MUCH larger raises, even if you only do it with AA. 10X to start will still get called, and get them in more often/faster. a good play for AA, at the lower levels, is to 10X it, pot, pot, shove. believe me, you win more than you lose.
2) although, this is solid advice for a few levels higher, i think keeping any money in your stack with AA is failing to max your return. TPTK is still king down here, and an overpair will get TPGK in a lot since your opponents still cant find the fold button when holding TP. making a habit out of only valuebetting AA, read or not, will cost you bb's. they simply pay off too light at these levels to not push the envelope rather hard.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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gonefishin420
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: ST. Louis
Posts: 8
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to me it sounds like he prolly has flush draw or just top pair with ok kick i would just double or triple ur last bet and if he has top pair hes callin if hes chasin straight or flush then hes not gonna call anything u bet anyway
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
1.) Raise more PF. There were two limpers in front and you only raised to 4xbb? My standard (same for a lot of others I know) are 4x+1bb per limper, so here you "should" have made it 12 cents PF.
2.) Shitty flop for your hand, minraises (like chopper said) = virtual nuts/weak bullshit. This is why I think 3betting his minraise is bad.
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1) good point. actually, 2NL donks will call MUCH larger raises, even if you only do it with AA. 10X to start will still get called, and get them in more often/faster. a good play for AA, at the lower levels, is to 10X it, pot, pot, shove. believe me, you win more than you lose.
2) although, this is solid advice for a few levels higher, i think keeping any money in your stack with AA is failing to max your return. TPTK is still king down here, and an overpair will get TPGK in a lot since your opponents still cant find the fold button when holding TP. making a habit out of only valuebetting AA, read or not, will cost you bb's. they simply pay off too light at these levels to not push the envelope rather hard. |
Agree, I've actually started open shoving AA at 2nl lol (well, when I played there regularly, and every now and then I pop down there). You will be amazed how often you get called. As long as your stack is ~$2 its +EV imo. If you aren't comfortable doing that, I totally understand, its just something to think about.
Also, I only threw out the 4x+1bb per limper as a typical standard open. He obviously doesn't have to follow it EVERY TIME. I sure don't, but if its something to have to fall back on when you aren't sure how much to open for.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
1.) Raise more PF. There were two limpers in front and you only raised to 4xbb? My standard (same for a lot of others I know) are 4x+1bb per limper, so here you "should" have made it 12 cents PF.
2.) Shitty flop for your hand, minraises (like chopper said) = virtual nuts/weak bullshit. This is why I think 3betting his minraise is bad.
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1) good point. actually, 2NL donks will call MUCH larger raises, even if you only do it with AA. 10X to start will still get called, and get them in more often/faster. a good play for AA, at the lower levels, is to 10X it, pot, pot, shove. believe me, you win more than you lose.
2) although, this is solid advice for a few levels higher, i think keeping any money in your stack with AA is failing to max your return. TPTK is still king down here, and an overpair will get TPGK in a lot since your opponents still cant find the fold button when holding TP. making a habit out of only valuebetting AA, read or not, will cost you bb's. they simply pay off too light at these levels to not push the envelope rather hard. |
Agree, I've actually started open shoving AA at 2nl lol (well, when I played there regularly, and every now and then I pop down there). You will be amazed how often you get called. As long as your stack is ~$2 its +EV imo. If you aren't comfortable doing that, I totally understand, its just something to think about.
Also, I only threw out the 4x+1bb per limper as a typical standard open. He obviously doesn't have to follow it EVERY TIME. I sure don't, but if its something to have to fall back on when you aren't sure how much to open for. |
not to get too off-topic, and this certainly isnt "ideal" for anything other than screwing around....but, i have a friend that resorted to only open-pushing JJ+/AK. thats it. he played no other hands. and, only pushed the 5 holdings i said. and, he ran 15k hands at a 40 ptbb/100 while 24-tabling a "stacked" method.
fold. fold. fold. fold. shove. fold X12. shove. fold X8. shove. you get the idea. but, it worked pretty well. its the farthest away for actually playing poker that you can get....but, it worked.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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siltstrider
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 85
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That's crazy. What level was he playing? 2NL?
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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dranger7070 wrote:
Quote:
1.) Raise more PF. There were two limpers in front and you only raised to 4xbb? My standard (same for a lot of others I know) are 4x+1bb per limper, so here you "should" have made it 12 cents PF.
2.) Shitty flop for your hand, minraises (like chopper said) = virtual nuts/weak bullshit. This is why I think 3betting his minraise is bad. Why blow out the junk in his range? He's shown to be a station, why does he start raising now? What hands that hes minraising that call your 3bet are you ahead of?
PF he limp/called, which for his stats = damn near ATC. He can easily have straight/two pair/set/pair + draw/tons of other shit. I just think flatting flop, b/f turn is best line. These guys (stations) just don't minraise very often so I don't think you are going to be ahead when he calls/raises your 3bet.
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I would almost always agree to this (number one). It was table specific. I was certain the first two limpers would fold (they were extremely limp/tight. The caller played just about anything so I wanted him to call...thats why I only made it 4x BB.
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I confess in quicksand
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinland
I would almost always agree to this (number one). It was table specific. I was certain the first two limpers would fold (they were extremely limp/tight. The caller played just about anything so I wanted him to call...thats why I only made it 4x BB.
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well it's good that you're adjusting your bet-sizing to the table dynamics, but i'd be wary of any logic that makes it sound like you're inducing a call with ANYTHING preflop. If villain continues with "just about anything" then we might as well get as much from him before the flop hits as possible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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your reasoning behind not raising more PF is really bad. You might have analyzed the table correctly but the subsequent action you took was a contradiction to your analysis.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by siltstrider
That's crazy. What level was he playing? 2NL?
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and, half-stacking 5NL....where he ran an 18/100 over another 8k hands. 24-tabling doesnt take that long to rack up those hands.
however, no one take this too far. it is NOT what you are here to learn. this is NOT "poker." however, it was a nice "test" into how lightly the dillholes you play will call you down......no matter your stats, lack of play at the table. they simply dont notice, and are willing to gambool with some really shitty hands. i saw an HH where K9s called his 80bb open shove, and a whole crapload of AX hands.
bottom line, at 2NL and even 5NL, raise your big hands BIG. and, pot the flop and/or turn to set up your chances to get it in quickly when its obvious you are ahead. it is +EV.....and you will find that very advice in any article you search here on FTR going way, way back, too. its not new advice. you just have to be willing to listen to the advice given here and avoid overthinking things. trying to "make the strategies your own" will only slow your progress. just be coachable and keep it simple.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
it is NOT what you are here to learn. this is NOT "poker." however, it was a nice "test" into how lightly the dillholes you play will call you down......no matter your stats, lack of play at the table. they simply dont notice, and are willing to gambool with some really shitty hands. i saw an HH where K9s called his 80bb open shove, and a whole crapload of AX hands.
bottom line, at 2NL and even 5NL, raise your big hands BIG. and, pot the flop and/or turn to set up your chances to get it in quickly when its obvious you are ahead. it is +EV.....and you will find that very advice in any article you search here on FTR going way, way back, too. its not new advice. you just have to be willing to listen to the advice given here and avoid overthinking things. trying to "make the strategies your own" will only slow your progress. just be coachable and keep it simple.
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great post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
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