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dahve3d
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09-21-2010, 01:29 AM
Post subject: AA on paired board
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#1 (permalink)
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Two Pair
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 25
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Hey guys just want your thoughts on this hand... just sat down at the table, this is within like the first 5 hands so no reads to speak of.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) -
saw flop
UTG ($2.59)
MP ($2)
Hero (CO) ($2.04)
Button ($1.33)
SB ($2)
BB ($3.53)
Preflop: Hero is CO with  , 
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.10, 2 folds, BB calls $0.08, UTG calls $0.08
Flop: ($0.31)  ,  ,  (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($0.31)  (3 players)
BB bets $0.16, UTG calls $0.16, Hero raises to $0.48, 1 fold, UTG raises to $2.49 (All-In)
At the time I checked the flop because it was pretty dry, hoping one of them might pair up an overcard on the turn or something to let me get some value... looking back on it now though that might not have been the best choice... especially with the limp/caller pre we have to put him on a pretty wide range so he's much more likely to have hit that flop than if it were a raised pot... also it sucks if the turn is a diamond, and plus the flop is multiway so we want to be giving free cards even less... maybe better to bet this flop?
And then my other question obviously is the turn decision... here is what I stoved:
Board: 9h 4h 9d
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.729% 35.73% 00.00% 21223 0.00 { AcAs }
Hand 1: 64.271% 64.27% 00.00% 38177 0.00 { JJ-88, 44, A9s, K9s, Q9s, J9s, T9s, A9o, K9o, Q9o, J9o, T9o, 7d6d, JdTd}
So this definitely makes my turn call here look pretty dumb since he would raise overpairs pre and there aren't too many draws we can put him on here without reads that he's playing draws aggressively... was this just completely stupid? My tendency when at the tables on paired boards like this is to heavily discount sets from his range which I think is what made me want to call here... is that good policy? Should there be more 9s in his the range I give him here? Less 9s?
Thanks!
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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against the range you gave him you have 35% equity and you only need ~ 33 % after all the dead money so call imo, if you can give them 8dTd Ad8d jd8d 8d7d ect then this becomes even better. But tbh 3 way and the way he flats the bet then shoves makes me think this is only nines and i would fold to his shove. I have been having problems with similar situations myself and folding overpairs on the flop is no joy, but its something youve got to be able to do.
but imo the real butchering of this hand was on the flop...BET FFS, you get tons of value from 66-JJ and the ton of diamond draws they have, and you can even fold to the raise on the flop
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Put Your Opponent On A Goddamn Range
http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ds-162741.html
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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dahve3d
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Two Pair
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 25
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Thanks philly I honestly don't know why I didn't bet flop at the time, it looks really dumb to me now, and yeah turn just feels weird since it's close mathematically, but I feel like you're right that this just looks more like a set than anything else.
Spoon - I put him on a range... sorry about the results thing it was honestly accidental as I was typing out my thought process
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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You're not doing it right. Actually read it this time then try again.
Edit: To clarify, you're not doing it for every Villain on every street after every decision.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Raoni_Poker
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 265
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It seems that you might have the fancy play syndrome. In these levels, you do not need to check behind the flop. Firstly, because there is a draw and you want them to call you incorrectly. Secondly, because they will call you with almost any pocket pairs, if not overcards.
You need reads to make the correct play here. For instance, I do not think that they would check 3 handed with an onverpair (TT-KK) (hands that you beat). People in these levels love to slowplay monsters. Checking a flush draw can be consistent. Donkeys love to shove flush draws as a semibluff. They just close their eyes and hope for the best. Another possibility is a set (9-x) or a full house (44 or 88).
I think you're beat for most of the time here. I would stack off in the flop if he re-raised me (as he would do this with worse in this board), but the turn action is sick with the given action.
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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UTG flats the first turn bet then gets raisy when it comes back to him... this isn't just trip nines, this is 44, 88 or 99 only for me, there appears to be no concern for the flush draw. Trip nines bets flop, it raises at first chance, trip nines shits itself if it sees a diamond.
Bet flop for sure, this is actually a great flop for aces most of the time, overcards are in so much trouble here they can't even hit 2pr, they need full house on the runner. It's also a great flop for AK to cbet, so I'd be expecting most pockets to be raising, flush draws to call, 99 calls (correct play imo), 44 probably calls at this level (incorrect play imo), and trip nines raise, though he shouldn't have trip nines often if he's limp/calling utg... that stinks of a pocket pair. I'm looking to stack off on the flop, but by the turn I'm thinking fold after the UTG reraise.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Bet flop, snapfold turn as played.
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Icanhastreebet
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dranger7070
Bet flop, snapfold turn as played.
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never snapfold w/o putting ur opponent on a range before folding even if you are 100% sure you are folding.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Obviously I planned ahead before I put in the raise that if UTG came back over the top after flatting, I'd fold.
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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If I'm 100% sure I'm folding I can't be bothered to waste time putting someone on a range, there's very likely some action on another table that requires my attention. If I'm adjusting a villain's range when I'm folding my missed bb junk regardless, that's less time to think on another table where my hand has hit, and no potential profit for my time to compensate.
If we have 23o on a 789 flop, who cares what his range is? We only care about this if we plan on spewing with our hand, and if we're planning on that, we're not 100% sure we're folding. Time is not something we have to waste when we're m-tabling, so if I give up on a pot, then I give up caring what the other guys have, because it might mean a more accurate range for a villain on another table where it matters.
I guess if putting people on a range comes naturally, it's different, but for us micro-grinders, it actually takes qite a bit of time and thought.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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It shouldn't. Take 3 seconds to go through your head possible hands he could have played like that THEN click the fold button. Do that for every hand and it will start to 'come naturally.' Stop being lazy.
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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I don't consider it laziness, it like to think of it as being efficient with my time, but you probably have a point. I'll do it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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I get what you're saying because I used to be lazy too. But I didn't think of it as lazy either. I always put off putting in more effort into my play. "Oh I'll REALLY start putting them on hand ranges at 10nl, 25nl, 50nl, etc." Trust me, start now, get in the habit of doing things right and it will pay off huge in the longrun.
If you want a real life example. Me and Micro2Macro started around the same time with similar BRs (~$50). He put in the work, I slacked off. He's at at 15k (maybe 20+ idk) BR and playing midstakes when he's feeling good. I'm still chillin' at the micros.
Take that fwiw.
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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I find it hard to concentrate on your posts. I want that bong after her, I'll leave it at that.
I tried tonight with what you are saying, but I found it tough. I guess to a point I always am putting people on at least possible hands, if not a range, and I'll expand on that I need to, but more often than not I was finding that in those situtaions where I was 100% folding, usually a checked and missed bb, I had other shit to be dealing with and would only reassess if I got to see a turn and it improved my hand. They're already on a range based on pf action and HUD, the laziness comes in not bothering to adjust it if I miss the flop. The conscious effort was there, and will remain, but unless I start dropping tables it's not going to be there all the time. I hope it does become more natural to me, otherwise I'll be out of my depth at the higher stakes.
Cheers for your input.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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Roller
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Straight
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
I find it hard to concentrate on your posts. I want that bong after her, I'll leave it at that.
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I looked at that avatar so many times without ever noticing the BONG.
Eyes Wide Open.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Cheers fellas.
That's good though, OngBonga. It's going to be somewhat difficult in the beginning and you won't be very good at all, but as you get more in tuned to whats going on around you, your ranges will become more and more accurate and automatic allowing you to play more tables.
I suggest cutting back a couple tables until you find your sweet spot and then progressively add a table at a time. You should/will notice a marked improvement in your play in no time.
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