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06-08-2008, 10:01 PM
Post subject: AA/KK or AK?
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#1 (permalink)
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Ugh, talk about variance and bankroll swings. Although I'm still about even from a few weeks ago, these past sessions have been brutal. And don't get me started on suck-outs, because I've seen enough 2-out rivers to last me a lifetime, or at least I hope. Anyway, I haven't played much this week so I've decided to do what any aspiring poker player would do, and read up on his literature.
Going back to the original Super/System book, Doyle Brunson states he would rather have AK over AA or KK in the hole. He states why, but I'm not going to re-hash the content here because you've either read it and either agree/disagree or you haven't read it and not sure what I'm getting at here.
The reason for this discussion is because I've had these three hole cards plenty over the past 10K hands, and have more often than not ran into an opponent holding one of these hands as well. After reviewing my sessions, I immediately thought of Doyle's NLHE section from Super/System.
Probably a better discussion for beginners but it doesn't help to review if you're a more advanced player.
So which hole cards would you rather have? AA/KK or AK? Why? And how do YOU play them in different situations?
I'm typically a small-ball player unless the table is ultra-aggressive, so I will let you guess which hand(s) I prefer.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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I make most money with AA.
I like money.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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AlphaKennyBody
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 108
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I haven't read Super System yet, but judging solely on my winrates for those hands (~90% for AA/KK, and ~70% for AKs/AKo) my choice is obviously AA/KK. Decisions with AK are so much harder compared to their paired counterparts.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
I make most money with AA.
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And how is this? Pre-flop or post-flop? Are you open raising, 3-betting, 4-betting or shoving? And against what?
Quote:
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Decisions with AK are so much harder compared to their paired counterparts.
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IMO this should be the opposite. Your decision to continue past the flop with AK is a fairly easy one in my book. It's much harder to let go KK and especially AA but I almost always see the turn card. I mean, it's pretty much mandatory right? 
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
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AA is the best and most profitable hand in poker, so I'll take AA please.
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animal_chin
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On the grind slavin' daily.
Posts: 180
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AA, AK, KK. In that order please. Over my first 11.5k (smallish sample, I know) hands of 5nl I've made $65.65 with AA (over half my 5nl winnings lol), and $12.75 with AK(3rd biggest winner), but I have lost $18.33 with KK (my biggest looser). I need to learn how to fold KK to all-ins on boards with no ace, but possible flush, straight, set. Also getting all-in with KK vs. AA four times preflop, and twice KK vs. AK preflop and loosing all of them doesn't help the old winrate either.
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taipan168
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Administrator
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Location: Sydney
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by animal_chin
Also getting all-in...twice KK vs. AK preflop and loosing all of them doesn't help the old winrate either.
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Um, I'm DELIGHTED to get it AI preflop with KK against AK. Sure, sometimes you lose the 70/30 but when you're getting at least even money pot odds there's nothing at all wrong with it.
I don't have Super/System, does anybody mind summarising Doyle's logic as to why he would rather have AK than AA or KK?!?!?!
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animal_chin
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On the grind slavin' daily.
Posts: 180
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by taipan168
Um, I'm DELIGHTED to get it AI preflop with KK against AK. Sure, sometimes you lose the 70/30 but when you're getting at least even money pot odds there's nothing at all wrong with it.
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I was delighted, I'm just saying that me loosing money on KK is not completely due to bad play  .
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by taipan168
anybody mind summarising Doyle's logic as to why he would rather have AK than AA or KK?!?!?!
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Because his made pair will force him to play big pots when he otherwise would have just bet/folded his Ace King. Also, when AK hits it leaves less of the board for other hands to hit.
I think it's more of a function of selective memory, playing really deep and not having good stats to back his material up with when he wrote it.
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SoKinAA
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2
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Like Doyle says in Super System regarding AA, "you either win a small pot or lose a large one". Still i would prefer AA.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SoKinAA
Like Doyle says in Super System regarding AA, "you either win a small pot or lose a large one". Still i would prefer AA.
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Total shit advice that I love to repeat at the card room. 
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,518
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AA>KK>AK LDO
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
AA>KK>AK LDO
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AA>KK>QQ>JJ>AK
For a long time, I made more money with AQ than AK. Then I made some adjustments to play AK more like AQ except when reads dictated otherwise.
Also, if you're regularly playing in 200bb+ games with passive opponents, wrecklessly stacking off with AA can be a pretty big leak.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Also, if you're regularly playing in 200bb+ games with passive opponents, wrecklessly stacking off with AA can be a pretty big leak.
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+1
Wasn't it Doyle Brunson who said AA is the only hand worth going broke over? Now doesn't this statement completely contradict his whole idea of AK over AA? There aren't many situations I would prefer AK over AA.
I just can't see it. Even after a drawy-type flop, you're still going to be ahead with AA or KK most of the time.
AK is a TPTK/drawing-type hand. The only reason I see Doyle making this statement is that he knows it's easy to let AK go on a shit flop and lose a small pot, rather than a large one holding AA or KK. It almost sounds like he was stating he's afraid of getting sucked out on, which doesn't sound like Doyle at all.[/i]
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,448
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Are you srs?
[x] This thread fails to deliver
AA
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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agree wid fnord, aa,kk,qq, then possibly a tie between jj and ak. People exaggerate how hard jj and qq are to play imo.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,518
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fek, I think I make more from TT than I do AK. AK's only good for stackin' station-donks who overplay crappier aces.
Seems the higher up in the limits I get, the less I like AK...
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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AA>KK>AK, I think Doyle's reasoning in SS2 makes little sense
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jimmyallin
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Two Pair
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 31
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AA, KK are far superior.
I play them very differently. With either hand, I almost always raise. AA/KK (or any big pair) plays much better against fewer opponents. I rarely get all my money in pre-flop with AA/KK unless someone else pushes.
With AK, I push against a raiser a lot of the time because I figure that my increased fold equity + my hand equity makes it a better play than just re-raising. If I have AK, the odds of someone else having AA or KK went way down. So I don't mind getting all my money in against an underpair (or worse). Plus, AK is tough to play on the flop when you don't hit or if an opponent comes alive on a scary board.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SoKinAA
Like Doyle says in Super System regarding AA, "you either win a small pot or lose a large one". Still i would prefer AA.
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Total shit advice that I love to repeat at the card room. |
I laughed out loud at this, honestly.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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