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AA getting raised all in by medium stack, call or reraise?

  
 
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Borax
Old 06-12-2005, 05:31 PM     Post subject: AA getting raised all in by medium stack, call or reraise? #1 (permalink)  
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Should I have called to try to get 1-2 more callers in here, or was the raise ok

0.25/0.5$ NL 10 player

Dealt to Borax on Button

------------------
OpeningBetRound
------------------
SB: Posts small blind 0.25
BB: Posts big blind 0.50
UTG: Calls for 0.50
UTG+1: Folds
UTG+2: Folds
MP1: Calls for 0.50
MP2: Calls for 0.50
MP3 : Folds
CO : Calls for 0.50
Borax: Raises for 2.00
SB: Folds
BB: Folds
UTG: Calls for 1.50
MP1: Calls for 1.50
MP2: Went all-in 17.93
CO: Folds
Borax: Went all-in 46.75
UTG: Folds
MP1: Folds
Borax: Receives returned betting money 30.32
------------------
Flop

------------------
Turn

------------------
River

------------------
Showdown
------------------
MP2
- No Pair - Ace high
Borax
- Flush
------------------
Result
------------------
MP2 Showed Cards

Borax Showed Cards (Winning) 40.01

------------------
'Well, obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.'
 
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k8s
Old 06-12-2005, 06:02 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I would just call. The raise was already big enough to drive out mediocre hands; if you call you might be called by 1010, JJ, QQ, KK, AQ or AK. Raising pretty much drives everything out except KK.
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Borax
Old 06-13-2005, 08:40 AM #3 (permalink)  
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But if the first raiser held KK would I like both QQ and JJ to call, increasing the number of outs to beat me when the pot is allready nice?
'Well, obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.'
 
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DarkenRahl
Old 06-13-2005, 12:18 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I probably would of done what you did. Cuts down the odds of your aces getting cracked. The pot is juicy enough already.
And if you go chasing rabbits
And you know you're going to fall,
Tell 'em a hookah smoking caterpillar
Has given you the call.

- Jefferson Airplane
 
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bair
Old 06-13-2005, 12:23 PM #5 (permalink)  
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you made the right play in my opinion
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a500lbgorilla
Old 06-13-2005, 01:18 PM #6 (permalink)  
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The last thing you want is a 4 way flop with a dry sidepot. Go the safe route on this one and you may even get a dominated hand to call.

-'rilla

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You mean the revolver, sir?
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DimitriT
Old 06-13-2005, 01:35 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
The last thing you want is a 4 way flop with a dry sidepot. Go the safe route on this one and you may even get a dominated hand to call.

-'rilla
Yep. But a $20 raise may have worked well too. Here you have a chance to get a side pot going with one more hand.
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Zangief
Old 06-17-2005, 05:35 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I think it matters little either way. The guy went all-in for $18. No one is going to call for 2/5 of their stack without a big hand anyway. I guess there's a small chance you are chasing out QQ or JJ who might have called the $18 but would fold for $50.
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ensign_lee
Old 06-17-2005, 09:05 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I think a minimum raise is in order here. The next minimum raise is already sizeable in itself, and screams "get out of this pot. I'm taking it down." But BECAUSE it screams that, it may make a hand like QQ or AKs call, thinking that they have you dominated. KK's probably coming along for the ride no matter what happens.

But I don't necessarily hate your play here either. I think the only mistake here (other than folding, obviously) would be to just flat call the raise. You're opening up an entire can of crap if you do that.

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Theeggman
Old 06-17-2005, 09:39 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I think your play was good. If someone held QQ or KK you would've probably got a call anyway imo.

I just can't believe you sucked out on that monster - A9o. Keep it up, it's guys like you that pay my bills.
I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
 
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dsaxton
Old 06-17-2005, 10:06 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
The last thing you want is a 4 way flop with a dry sidepot. Go the safe route on this one and you may even get a dominated hand to call.

-'rilla
Do you honestly think the other two limpers are both going to call a huge all-in reraise? I'd expect a maximum of one of the limpers to call if Borax called, and even that is unlikely. And the sidepot isn't really an issue, the idea is that just calling may significantly increase the size of the main pot which Borax is a big favorite to win.

In this situation, I'd either reraise all-in, or call and hope a dominated hand comes in, and then move in on the flop, leaning slightly more towards the latter approach. There really isn't a whole lot of risk in "allowing" another player into the pot (as if the other player's all-in doesn't prohibit most hands from seeing the flop anyways), but there is a lot of potential for gain.
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michael1123
Old 06-18-2005, 10:57 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Just call, and hope to get a little more action, largely because of your position. Give someone a chance to call. It probably won't make a difference, but its a lot more profit for you if it does.

Minraising is the worst option in a situation like this. Its basically a dead giveaway for AA (much more than all in) and will scare the same if not more amount of people out of the pot than the all in would've, without putting the most amount of money in.

I think people must be missing that the shove is for 40xBB, 7x the previous bet, and almost half of Borax's stack. Clearly this is a situation where you should be begging for all the calls you can get in a ring game, and there is no post flop play here for Borax, he should then just automatically put the other half of his stack in on ANY flop.
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michael1123
Old 06-18-2005, 11:31 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
The last thing you want is a 4 way flop with a dry sidepot. Go the safe route on this one and you may even get a dominated hand to call.
You and I must have vastly different ideas about what is the last thing a person should want. AA with 4 preflop callers, in for a total of nearly 40xBB each, with almost half your stack in preflop (making post flop play easy as cake - you're automatically commited to shoving in, and they're almost commited to call with anything).

This is like a dream scenario for me! Such a profitable situation in a ring game. If I could be in this scenario once a day for the rest of my life, I'd be a very rich man, and very quickly.

In a tournament, it sucks a little, because it could easily be your last hand, but you still have a very good chance of like quadrupling up. But in ring games, this is an insanely profitable situation.

And the dry side pot thing doesn't matter at all in this spot. They've all contributed a huge chunk of their stacks to the main pot (that you're the big favorite to win), and they're basically commited to calling the rest of your chips at the flop if they have anything at all.

Now if the preflop all in was only 20xBB, or if Borax had like 200xBB in his stack and was covered by the other players, then this becomes a very risky scenario, and it'd then make sense to prefer to raise preflop, since otherwise the other players would have implied odds on Borax, and Borax could lose his entire deep stack after the flop if he wasn't careful. But in this case, saying you don't want more callers is like folding AA because 3 people are already all in on a ring table. Its just incorrect. Everyone, by how commited they are, may as well be considered all in preflop, and who doesn't like that with AA?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 06-18-2005, 01:48 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
The last thing you want is a 4 way flop with a dry sidepot. Go the safe route on this one and you may even get a dominated hand to call.

-'rilla
Do you honestly think the other two limpers are both going to call a huge all-in reraise? I'd expect a maximum of one of the limpers to call if Borax called, and even that is unlikely. And the sidepot isn't really an issue, the idea is that just calling may significantly increase the size of the main pot which Borax is a big favorite to win.

In this situation, I'd either reraise all-in, or call and hope a dominated hand comes in, and then move in on the flop, leaning slightly more towards the latter approach. There really isn't a whole lot of risk in "allowing" another player into the pot (as if the other player's all-in doesn't prohibit most hands from seeing the flop anyways), but there is a lot of potential for gain.
I meant his only choice was to push. If he just calls, he allows the others to come in behind him for a 4 way pot, with money behind and a dry side pot. He's commited to any flop and he's just running a bigger risk. The safe route is to push.

-'rilla

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a500lbgorilla
Old 06-18-2005, 01:53 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael1123
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
The last thing you want is a 4 way flop with a dry sidepot. Go the safe route on this one and you may even get a dominated hand to call.
You and I must have vastly different ideas about what is the last thing a person should want. AA with 4 preflop callers, in for a total of nearly 40xBB each, with almost half your stack in preflop (making post flop play easy as cake - you're automatically commited to shoving in, and they're almost commited to call with anything).

This is like a dream scenario for me! Such a profitable situation in a ring game. If I could be in this scenario once a day for the rest of my life, I'd be a very rich man, and very quickly.

In a tournament, it sucks a little, because it could easily be your last hand, but you still have a very good chance of like quadrupling up. But in ring games, this is an insanely profitable situation.

And the dry side pot thing doesn't matter at all in this spot. They've all contributed a huge chunk of their stacks to the main pot (that you're the big favorite to win), and they're basically commited to calling the rest of your chips at the flop if they have anything at all.

Now if the preflop all in was only 20xBB, or if Borax had like 200xBB in his stack and was covered by the other players, then this becomes a very risky scenario, and it'd then make sense to prefer to raise preflop, since otherwise the other players would have implied odds on Borax, and Borax could lose his entire deep stack after the flop if he wasn't careful. But in this case, saying you don't want more callers is like folding AA because 3 people are already all in on a ring table. Its just incorrect. Everyone, by how commited they are, may as well be considered all in preflop, and who doesn't like that with AA?
Oh, I was kinda thinking that was 100 NL not 50 NL and Borax and the rest had much more behind.

Next time post stacksizes!

-'rilla

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nick87
Old 06-19-2005, 10:15 PM #16 (permalink)  

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I believe it depends on several things.

Early in a tournament you may want to raise all in to be safe and drive everyone else out.

Later in a tournament, you may have to consider your stack size compared the highest stack size likely to call. If you have a HUGE stack size, than just calling may be a good decision. If you are covered, going all-in may be a better decision.

In ring games, stack size, and how much money in your pocket you have matter more. Again, with a huge stack size, just calling would be ok. If you can afford to lose and still pay comfortably, just calling would be a good idea. A smaller stack size would probably want to go all in to protect himself alittle more.

At these stakes, people will call two all-ins with TT, JJ, QQ, KK and AK. I think you did fine.
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Borax
Old 06-20-2005, 09:49 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Next time post stacksizes!

-'rilla
I will try, but the hand history files from expekt doesn't contain stack size....so it might be difficult. My stack and MP2's is given from the all-in though and I think UTG had about 15-20$ left and MP1 about 50$ left when they folded.
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Miffed22001
Old 06-23-2005, 03:30 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 Im certainly no expert but if the guy all in is offering you a third of ur current stack whether its real money or tourney play surely you want to be taking that.
If u put all chips in now, yeah youll scare everybody else away but surely there are more potential dangers in letting any other hand that you will dominate under normal circumstances see a flop. Your chips will go in on the flop regardless but if someone else does call with a lower pp surely the chances of loosing to any other pp increase after the flop. Afterall you can almsot definatly increase your stack by a third or you can give a hand that you dominate like QQ or JJ 2 outs to beat your hand? Its not a lot but its two more than none if you fold.
I certainly wudnt advise caution but if uve got the nuts win with them, dont give some1 else the chance to beat them surely?
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Miffed22001
Old 06-23-2005, 03:33 AM #19 (permalink)  
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 And as this 'self declared semi-fish' has just written the reply someone has just forgotten to raise all in with AA and ive called with QQ and hit a set. My maths is still poor and the odds arent good but why not just win the pot as you'll do most times with AA
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