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seren
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03-12-2008, 02:09 PM
Post subject: AA facing turn heat from 60/0
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13
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Had just over two orbits at table when I ran into this hand against an unknown. Villain is in BB and appears to be 60/0/1.4 over 25 hands. I was convinced he had Qx and I was going to hit the turn hard, but his lead with the flush draw completing threw me. Can we/should we play back at this in the face of turn aggression and deep stack? If so, how?
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB
CO ($0.10)
Button ($6.65)
SB ($7.65)
BB Villain ($15.45)
UTG($3.30)
MP1 ($5.85)
MP2 ($9.85)
Hero ($9.90)
Hero is MP3 with  
SB posts a blind of $0.05, BB Villain posts a blind of $0.10.
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, CO calls $0.10 (All-In), 2 folds, Villain calls $0.30.
Flop: ($0.95)   
(3 players, 1 all-in)
Villain checks, Hero bets $0.90, Villain calls $0.90.
Turn: ($2.75) 
(3 players, 1 all-in)
Villain bets $1.60, Hero ???
[edited because I haven't woken up yet]
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deacon_bluez
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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I usually raise here. True that villain could be an any-two-suited player, but it's more likely you have him beat, I'd say. Set or flush is a possibility, but there are lots more hands you beat. He could have top pr. and be trying to protect his hand. A raise will tell you what you need to know.
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Sue me if I play too long....
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infinate8
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AA beat gotta fold there i'd think.At the end of day you only got 1 pair against a flush board with possible runner runner club.
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trump
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 71
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If it were me, I would fold. It seems like a flat call on the flop is always someone drawing, and with that board I would strongly suspect a flush draw. When the club hit on the turn, and the villain bet out, I would give up on the hand. A raise makes sense too, but it seems like that just puts you in a sticky situation since you'll probably be pot committing yourself with any reasonable raise. A flat call is the only thing I think is obviously wrong though.
A lot of times when I suspect a flush draw after the flop, and another suited card comes, I'll pull back. Even if the villain checks to me on the turn I'll just check it through because people slow play flushes almost every freaking time. I'll check again on the river or call a moderate raise. It seem to me if someone makes the flush and gets no action on the turn that they want to make up for lost action and often toss everything in on the river, making their hand pretty obvious.
Don't take my advice though, I'm a terrible noob. I'm hoping to hear from one of the seasoned players on this hand because it seems like something that I run into a lot. When I do play my aces aggressively with the scare card it seems like I always lose.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Call this and see how much he bets the river.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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lol @ folding the turn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by deacon_bluez
A raise will tell you what you need to know.
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is that the only reason you are raising? to find out if you are ahead or not? if so, then stop doing this. raising solely for info is a leak.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
lol @ folding the turn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by deacon_bluez
A raise will tell you what you need to know.
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is that the only reason you are raising? to find out if you are ahead or not? if so, then stop doing this. raising solely for info is a leak. |
Agreed. All raising acheives here is to fold the hands you beat and get calls/reraises from hands ahead of AA.
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deacon_bluez
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
lol @ folding the turn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by deacon_bluez
A raise will tell you what you need to know.
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is that the only reason you are raising? to find out if you are ahead or not? if so, then stop doing this. raising solely for info is a leak. |
No, it's not the only reason. I said that I thought he was ahead on the turn based on a range of hands you could put villain on. I like the raise because it forces villain to make a tough decision with a marginal hand. But if he reraises or calls and makes a substantial river bet, that should make you think maybe he's got you and consider saving the other half of your stack.
What do you do then, just call?
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Sue me if I play too long....
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trump
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 71
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I still would fold, and I don't get the "lol @ folding the turn". Every time someone gets lucky at this level they either slow play the holy hell out of it, or they bet it like that guy did.
I've been so screwed over by calling down big starting hands like this that it can't possibly be the right course of action to stick with the aces to the bitter end.
So rather than "lol noobz" maybe you could give a more constructive response as to why I'm so off the mark.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trump
So rather than "lol noobz" maybe you could give a more constructive response as to why I'm so off the mark.
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you have AA. the pot is not very large. the bet to you is just a bit over 1/2 pot. if you auto-fold here every time you will just get run over by people.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by deacon_bluez
No, it's not the only reason. I said that I thought he was ahead on the turn based on a range of hands you could put villain on.
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Out of the range you've assigned to villain how many hands that are behind do you think will call a raise? How many hands that are ahead will fold to a raise?
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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ProZachNation
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Over there!
Posts: 801
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I am usually not going to fold here.
If I raise it is for three reasons, if he reraises we can fold, if he calls we could very well be beat, and if he folds we took down a middle size pot.
If we call we keep the pot smaller. And then we come to another decision. If he bets a blank river may be able to call down. If he shove a blank river we can fold.
I think it is probably best to call turn and see.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.
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seren
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13
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Interesting range of responses.
I had a long, hard think before doing anything on this one, but I just couldn't get comfortable with any of the possible actions. While I was initially sure villain was playing Qx, I didn't have enough confidence in my read to bet out.
A call means I'm still basically clueless, and gives villain a chance to complete or strengthen his hand on the river. If the river is a brick, villain may well bet out again, and I'll be stuck in the same spot - am I facing a value bet, a probe, or what? If he's playing a queen, she could have already mated, or could mate on the river. Is his bet amount on the turn a weak TPNK line, two pair feeling out the flush draw, or a made hand value flush bet?
If I raise, I'm in danger of committing to the pot. With just top pair and those stats, I reckon opp will call a min or modest raise, yet that already puts half my stack in the middle. Any bigger raise and I risk paying off the made flush or a two pair, getting the money in when it would have been obvious that I was behind. And how big a raise will this 60/0 villain call, even with just top pair?
In the end, I decided to fold on this one occasion as, although I felt there was a good chance I had villain beat (and I HATE folding AA against donks), I couldn't be sure enough to play comfortably, and therefore wouldn't be able to play optimally. Time to wait for a better spot. I knew with the all-in from the CO that villain would have to show down, and that that would give me the info I wanted. If my read was right, I'll know how to play much weaker holdings against villain profitably.
I think for me that was the key to this hand - it wasn't about the cards in play, it was that I hadn't been paying enough attention to villain's post flop play over the last two orbits. If I had, I would have been a lot more comfortable and would have known how to play the turn.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by seren
A call means I'm still basically clueless, and gives villain a chance to complete or strengthen his hand on the river. If the river is a brick, villain may well bet out again, and I'll be stuck in the same spot - am I facing a value bet, a probe, or what? If he's playing a queen, she could have already mated, or could mate on the river. Is his bet amount on the turn a weak TPNK line, two pair feeling out the flush draw, or a made hand value flush bet?
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First of all please don't fold this again. You have AA and villain isn't threatening your stack as it seems like he wants to play a small-medium pot with you. As for being clueless, you don't always have to know exactly where you stand in every hand on every street. If villain bets the river but doesn't go nuts and overbet or something then you should call. It is perfectly justifiable to lose a small-medium pot with AA in this spot.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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deacon_bluez
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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I'd agree with this. Villain hasn't shown sufficient aggression to make you (or me at least) think you are beat. With pocket AA I assume I have the best hand unless I'm convinced otherwise. I still like the raise for the turn, but if you just call you are not in too bad a shape for the river. If villain value bets it with a better hand, I usually pay it off. I find that a lot of times villain will check the river, kinda giving up on the hand, and in that case you could throw in a value bet yourself or just check down if you are still iffy.
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Sue me if I play too long....
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paulwright
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
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Call the turn. I am hoping for a club on the river to make things clearer. If he freezes to the club - make a smallish bet and hopefully take it down. If he leads to a club - you can fold.
If no club comes - then call a smallish bet or check it down. You beat so many hands (AQ, KQ, JT). You cant lay down aces here if he isnt playing for stacks...
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infinate8
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GOOD FOLD! lol@the guy loling@ folding the turn  ......people think AA is magic no discipline to fold it with a bad flop.
Again good fold you woulda lost that hand.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by infinate8
GOOD FOLD! lol@the guy loling@ folding the turn ......people think AA is magic no discipline to fold it with a bad flop.
Again good fold you woulda lost that hand. |
methinks you are weak tight. and what would you imagine is a good flop? do you wait to see AAx before putting money in?
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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I dont think the turn is anything other than a call versus this player.
You typical donk goes check.....RAISE with his flush here he doesnt often bet out as much as people seem to be advocating eg. OMFG he bet and there are 3 same cards gotta fold, but clearly you will have a tough decision to make on the river, clearly for all the chips. Opp could easliy have KQ here as much as a flush.
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rvrking22
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 200
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This post is probably one of the most interesting post i've read so far.... It gives a lot of insight about players different perspectives of AA on a textured flop. Anyways heres my take on the hand. On the flop when the Villian checks and you bet out and Villian smooth calls and doesnt pop a raise, this to me rules out any kind of overpair or any Q with a A,K,or J kicker. Or for that matter any Q in general. The Villian calling the bet makes me feel like a) FD b) Open-ended straight draw or c) An overcard with an Inside straight draw. When the turn brings a club and Villian bets out, Im most likely thinking he hit the flush. However this to me seems to be a very weak play of just folding the hand because if he doesnt have the FD, which is semi-reasonable prediction, you are most likely ahead. So I would at least call the bet (your getting good pot odds) and see what the river brings. If the river is a dead card, and villian bets out, i think its safe to assume you are beat and its an easy fold, if he checks, Im most likely going to either a) bet 1/3 of the pot, and if he raises fold because people at this level love the slow play.. or b) just check behind. Thats how I would play the hand, anyways what did the villian have?
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
I dont think the turn is anything other than a call versus this player.
You typical donk goes check.....RAISE with his flush here he doesnt often bet out as much as people seem to be advocating eg. OMFG he bet and there are 3 same cards gotta fold, but clearly you will have a tough decision to make on the river, clearly for all the chips. Opp could easliy have KQ here as much as a flush.
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whoa it's miffed! is it just me or have you been absent from strat posts for a bit?
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
I dont think the turn is anything other than a call versus this player.
You typical donk goes check.....RAISE with his flush here he doesnt often bet out as much as people seem to be advocating eg. OMFG he bet and there are 3 same cards gotta fold, but clearly you will have a tough decision to make on the river, clearly for all the chips. Opp could easliy have KQ here as much as a flush.
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whoa it's miffed! is it just me or have you been absent from strat posts for a bit? |
3 months
Wait till i start posting HHs again 
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pankfish
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: On Tony Romo's nuts
Posts: 385
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If you raise here it is a bluff. Not a bad bluff because at 10 nl you can fold out a two pair hand here. Call is still the best line here though. I'm not value betting if he checks on river though because I don't think villain is value betting two pair here and may not be value betting a set that he will certainly call with. I doubt a naked Q is calling a river bet. I'm probably not calling more than a 1/2 pot bet on river.
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<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs
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pankfish
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: On Tony Romo's nuts
Posts: 385
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by paulwright
Call the turn. I am hoping for a club on the river to make things clearer. If he freezes to the club - make a smallish bet and hopefully take it down. If he leads to a club - you can fold.
If no club comes - then call a smallish bet or check it down. You beat so many hands (AQ, KQ, JT). You cant lay down aces here if he isnt playing for stacks...
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Hoping for the fourth club when we have no club? wtf?
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<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs
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