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Chopper

01-24-2008, 05:15 PM Post subject: AA from ep problems

#1 (permalink)

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i hate getting AA when i am UTG-UTG+2. it sucks getting action. and, when i do, its a pp. and they seem, lately, to slow play my AA all the way down and dump me on river.

with tables as tightish as these days, who has tips? and dont tell me "limp RR" because i cant count on these dickshits to raise often enough to do it.

many thanks.

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Rondavu

01-24-2008, 05:56 PM Post subject: Re: AA from ep problems

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Your cards are face up a lot. I suggest being a tiny bet more deceptive after the flop in some safe spots to extract more value when you're ahead. You're allowing people to effectively crack you inconsequentially. If I knew you raised AA from UTG, I would call with a very wide range knowing exactly what I need on the flop to continue, and feeling I could extract a lot when I see what I like.

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Pelion

01-24-2008, 06:02 PM Post subject: Re: AA from ep problems

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

If I knew you raised AA from UTG, I would call with a very wide range knowing exactly what I need on the flop to continue, and feeling I could extract a lot when I see what I like.

That just means we need to be raising a wider range. We gain protection from having a range that wont always stack off. If you find people playing back at you with less than a set then high unimproved pairs become strong. If people are only playing for sets then you make loads by raising a wide range and playing small ball postflop without the nuts.

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Vrax

01-24-2008, 06:28 PM

#4 (permalink)

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It seems that you aren't 3bet often enough and are forced to play AA in bad SPR too often.

If you think, you can get action from JJ+, AK, then make protection raise with your Aces (around 15% of stack) then have easy two street poker to play. On 25NL and even 50NL you will still get action even from TT-QQ, which will give crazy profit to your AA. Yeah, 67s, JTs, JQ etc will fold to huge 15BB open, but you'll make up for it by winning big pots from TT+ overpairs and AK TPTK.

Or:

Widen your UTG opening range slightly (add some lower PP's and J+J+s some of the time) and fire more second barrels. It seems like you get insane amount respect from UTG, so make use of it to win more small and medium pots.

Or:

Limp reraising is also not that bad, if you do it along with AK, then represent AA/KK on blanks. If your openlimping range UTG is tight, you may even want to pull some crazy shit like limp-squeezes with Axs to make them dump their AQ and AJ preflop and set-farm on you in 3bet pots, not "just raised" pots.

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Numbr2intheWorld

01-24-2008, 07:14 PM

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basically you need to lose respect utg

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jyms

01-24-2008, 07:36 PM

#6 (permalink)

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are you still limping Small PP UTG? What hands do you raise?

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daven

01-25-2008, 02:43 AM Post subject: Re: AA from ep problems

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i hate getting AA when i am UTG-UTG+2.
who has tips?

if you're 3-bet then just call. You'll be fine post-flop.
don't ever limp.
find out the max preflop raise that frequently gets a little bit of action, then hit it that hard or harder
Raise 78s from the button and show your cards when everyone folds. Repeat. A few times. Or fold to three bets. Most players don't distinguish between raises from different positions.
Don't open-limp anything that's not JJ or 98s.

Chopper

01-25-2008, 04:34 AM

#8 (permalink)

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thanks for all the tips.

i must be to tight UTG, but i think we all are at 25NL fr. and, if i am the only one opening my range, i dont think the others will compensate. i dont like raising AJ-, 66-, KJ-. its really tight, i know, but imo, if you start raising KJ or AJ, you open the door for domination in this nit-rich world i am living in.

i AM starting to use the other pp's and AXs for balance. when i was at my best, i didnt use position much; therefore, i was rather wide from ep and action wasnt the problem, domination was. you know how the pendulum swings.

and, like Vrax said, i NEVER get 3bet. well, it feels like never. therefore, implied odds become a huge problem.

however, tonight, i raised and got 3bet. i just called. flop came flushy, but low. so, i open shoved feeling i would ...
- look bluffy
- catch another overpair
- catch the flush draw

guy had 67s for bottom pair and the draw, so i got lucky in getting the big call (for some reason i felt he was a complete donkey and would call), but was a little better than a flip. not the best play, for sure, given that sets call in a flash and smoke my ass.

i find that 6X+ will fold the table most times even with 2+ limpers. so, i dont often open for more. down here, i try not to vary my bet sizes too much whether pf or post. i am not to the point yet where i understand how to match the ranges i bet with the sizes for balance. (thanks for the reply, max, i'm sure you can give some examples of HHs where we could play with what ranges bet what based on texture?)

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daven

01-25-2008, 05:54 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i must be to tight UTG, but i think we all are at 25NL fr....
i AM starting to use the other pp's and AXs for balance....
i find that 6X+ will fold the table most times even with 2+ limpers. so, i dont often open for more.

25nl on FT, I opened UTG/+1 with all pocket pairs, half AXs (by colour, or odds/evens per session, or sometimes all of them if the table was super-weak) and one SC, sometimes added a one-gapper as well, session dependent. Never opened KQo, never opened AJo. Seemed to work ok once i figured out to c-bet a little smaller, think you told me that. I was always bet pot or bet pot +1BB. 50nl is similar, cos 3-betting is still rare/blue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

given that sets call in a flash and smoke my ass.

rare that a low pair is 3-betting at 25nl, same with 67s too though

spoonitnow

01-25-2008, 10:55 AM

#10 (permalink)

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At 50nl and below, I'd recommend opening from UTG in a 9-handed game with something like AQs+, AQo+, 66+. At UTG+1, I'd add AJs and KQs. At UTG+2, I'd add AJo and KQo and ATs. I'm pretty sure this gives you a wide enough of a range in EP that nits and set-miners aren't likely to be able to exploit.

If you aren't getting 3-bet much and having to play with bad SPRs, raising to 5x with all of your opening range from the first three positions instead of 4x might help a considerable amount, especially considering that Full Tilt players (from what I have seen) tend to buy in short more often. Maybe it's something to experiment with at 25nl and 50nl, I only did this at 10nl in EP to thin the field just a little to limit schooling post-flop.

Also if you aren't getting 3-bet much at all, you could add 55-22 to your EP ranges if you so desire, but it's something to keep an eye on for profitability. At the very least, it will get you playing more hands against presumably worse players.

As far as telling the difference between TPTK and a set on a board like 863 against your set, I suggest you take notes on how players play sets and what players are really aggressive with low TPTK hands, the goal being to start to develop the intuition to have a feel for when unknowns have each.

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Chopper

01-25-2008, 01:55 PM

#11 (permalink)

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thanks a mill, boys. lots of great stuff to "digest" here. lets hope i dont try and add all of it at the same time. oh no, i feel monkey tilt coming....lol.

thanks for the approx. range, spoon. but, i still hate AJ. it is probably my biggest broadway loser. hmmmm. can you say overplay? i know its not AK, but i have a hard time resisting it, so, for now, its not in my ep range at all....well, except sometimes...i cant quit cold turkey...lol.

and, nice to see i talked you off of "bet pot, bet pot," daven. i may pot the flop...when i hit it. but, most times i cbet 3/4ish because it simply doesnt have to work as often to stay massively profitable.

i scratch your back, you scratch mine. thanks for the suggestion.

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Fnord

01-26-2008, 02:37 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

C-bet less when you raise from EP.

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spoonitnow

01-26-2008, 03:04 AM

#13 (permalink)

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FWIW, at a 9-handed table, UTG+2 is usually considered middle position. =P

Chopper

01-26-2008, 03:19 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

C-bet less when you raise from EP.

God Damn {click}. thank you for that...seriously.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

01-29-2008, 05:23 AM

#15 (permalink)

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bump for relevant "balancing" review.

opening up a bit from UTG...randomly/rarely, but with baby pairs, and AXs. figuring to cbet standard sizes and rarely hit some stackable monsters.

does this look right? i cbet the flop and 2barrel only because the 8 paired. not believable because of typical donk view of UTG ranges?

doubt i had a "thinker." villain was semi-tight with NO aggression, but i didnt know that at the time, as villain was new to table...however I had been at table for awhile and i was very inactive.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($9.85)
Button ($12.70)
SB ($8.80)
BB ($10.15)
Hero ($17.25)
UTG+1 ($10.25)
MP1 ($9.65)
MP2 ($24.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

, 6

.
Hero raises to $0.5, 3 folds, CO calls $0.50, 3 folds.

Flop: ($1.15) 4

, 8

, 6

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.8, CO calls $0.80.

Turn: ($2.75) 8

(2 players)
[color=#CC3333]Hero ???

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

daven

01-29-2008, 07:08 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

not believable because of typical donk view of UTG ranges?

how many people at this level vary their range by position? = almost none except the occasional player who steals from the button. I mean, a lot of players have read about the importance of position and the idea of an expanding range. But they don't/can't apply it to their game. go to pt and look at the position stats on players you have the most hands on, it will likely prove illuminating
so... typical donk view is that your UTG raising range is the same as your MP raising range is the same as your cut-off raising range.

BankItDrew

01-29-2008, 08:26 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Chopper, I'd fire another bet on the turn, about 1/2 - 2/3 pot. Assume villain has either club draw or smaller pair until shown otherwise. If villain raises turn you can dump it confidently. Check any river card that's not a six and call nearly any river bet.

I like the idea of mixing up your game, changing things up, keep them guess etc etc by opening with A6s fairly early.... but it just makes for more difficult spots, most of which are oop.

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badgers

01-29-2008, 10:29 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

C-bet less when you raise from EP.

Wait... why? I know that cbetting 100% OOP(edit for typo: is bad), but surely when you raise from EP and get one caller you will take the pot down an awful lot of the time with a cbet because our range is so narrow and villain will be set mining a lot. I do not get this piece of advice at all, please elaborate.

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Chopper

01-29-2008, 12:51 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by badgers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

C-bet less when you raise from EP.

Wait... why? I know that cbetting 100% OOP, but surely when you raise from EP and get one caller you will take the pot down an awful lot of the time with a cbet because our range is so narrow and villain will be set mining a lot. I do not get this piece of advice at all, please elaborate.

the original question was about "getting AA paid from early spots." and, this piece of advice, along with others, hit me square between the eyes.

it tells me to LET THEM DO THE BLUFFING. AA is way ahead to not-to-far-behind lots, imo. and, when i raise UTG, they respect it. when i cbet, they respect it. so, i look weak, they try and steal....whammo. i get AA paid. but, to do this, you must be able to drop your AA when appropriate. something i need to get better at before implementing this more often than "rarely."

DAVEN, if you use "steals blinds" as a barometer for who plays position, the answer at 25NL or 10NL is NOBODY. i find a rare few that steal more than 20% of the time. so, i see your point, to a degree. but, i am trying to polarize my range a bit from early position to gain action in HU pots with big hands. whether THEY play position or not, i need some of the ones that do to see me play some crap from early pos. kind of like investing a little in my future, if you will. there ARE note-takers out there. we just dont know who they are because they are in the minority.

DREW, thanks. here is how i played it. i am going to be in more difficult spots, especially when i flop the A. but, i am prepared for this to be my "experiment" for February or longer, until i get the hang of it.

the "call almost any river bet" has me? if i bet turn and he calls, why do i check/call river? bluff inducer by worse, but minimize damage against better? i guess there is a high likelihood that the flush draw is bluffing and that widens our calling range?

here's the rest...

Turn: ($2.75) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.8, CO calls $2.80.

River: ($8.35) J

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5.75 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $8.35

everyone else agree there is a 50% chance i got bluffed off the best hand? i'm not sure. i think smaller overpair was in there, too.

what about bet size on turn. its an irregular thing for me to pot the turn, but i wanted to really sell the 8, and if called, be reasonably sure in my mind that a flush draw doesnt always call a BIGGER turn bet on a scare card.

i give NO credit for villain reading my UTG range as "badly missed" here. i could have QQ+ just as easily as AKs. and, i pot the flop enough i dont think anyone sees my turn bet as "out of line because he never pots turn." that is giving WAY too much credit to the brain cells of an unknown 10-25NL player.

i sized it that way to make it easier for me to get away from on river, if called. problems with that?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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badgers

01-29-2008, 02:17 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Well yes I agree there are certain spots where c/c all streets is better than cbetting, especially when a cbet is only going to be called by better hands. But when we have an overpair we are betting for value from lower overpairs/ TPTK. It's different to having A7 on a AQ2 board, where check calling will sometimes get a bet from a PP/ value from Qx on the river.

I find the idea of you having to balance your range to the extent of opening things like A6s utg ludicrous. If that is a loser for you UTG (and it probs is) just dump it. No one's going to notice what % of hands you are raising UTG at this level. You've said yourself, nobody at 10/25nl is positionally aware. If they're rasing most/all their button range UTG, why are they going to assign you a really narrow range?

Admittedly you will have to think things through more vs. the regs, I'm sure some of them are going to understand position esp. those at 25nl. But don't try and balance your range/ get to fancy vs. the donks, just valuetown the crap out of them in these spots.

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Chopper

01-29-2008, 04:41 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vrax

BADGERS,

this is the advice i liked, and am trying to use in "sprinkled" amounts. dont go thinking i raise A6s from ep everytime now. i did it twice last night in 400 hands. and, the poker gods seemed to love giving me A8s, A3s, and all my baby pairs in ep last night...lol. prolly had 10-15 chances.

the third option Vrax gives is to limp-RR, and i absolutely cannot bring myself to limp the tables i play on with premium pairs. its just to risky. those tables go multi-way very easily, and i dont want to have to bail on AA because a limped pot never got raised and the flop comes T 6 7 two tone.

again, this is all because i am trying to see if i can "induce" some aggression against me from ep...to get the premiums paid because i get nothing from them when i am extremely aggressive.

just an experiment. dont worry, i am not getting too carried away with this crap. lol.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Pythonic

01-29-2008, 04:50 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Pythonic

01-29-2008, 04:50 PM

#23 (permalink)

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I like the limp UTG with AA then cold call preflop raise HU. Aces seem to get paid off almost every time.

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Ash256

01-29-2008, 06:07 PM

#24 (permalink)

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No matter how many experienced posters want to try to convince me, I still don't think we should be trying to lose respect UTG at 10NL.

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badgers

01-29-2008, 06:18 PM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash256

No matter how many experienced posters want to try to convince me, I still don't think we should be trying to lose respect UTG at 10NL.

QFT, but not because we are going to get more action. I disagree because no-one's going to notice anyway and you're just going to end up playing more hands UTG making you just as positionally unaware as the rest of them.

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BankItDrew

01-29-2008, 08:35 PM

#26 (permalink)

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Chopper,

Like I said, 2/3 bet turn maximum... here you overbet the pot which bloats the river. The only reason I see for betting so much on the turn is if I have a very good read on opponent for a flush draw, since a spade came on the river I would have called.

Your assessment for why to 'call any river bet' is 100% correct. It's a bluff inducer. Some may prefer blocking bets to minimize losses against stronger hands, but I think that stronger hands would either have let us know by now, or would sense weakness by your river check and would not explode on the river too much.

Wallhallen

02-02-2008, 09:48 AM

#27 (permalink)

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I often just limp from UTG with Hands ike AA and KK and then put a big reraise if someone raises. If not then I try not to play big pot without good read.

biondino

02-02-2008, 09:56 AM

#28 (permalink)

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And how often is this big re-raise called?

riverturnflop

03-02-2008, 03:32 PM

#29 (permalink)

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It's not a crime to fold AA when you're facing a lot of heat on a dry board.

Fnord

03-04-2008, 09:10 AM

#30 (permalink)

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For what it's worth, in loose games I never raise UTG and LRR my top end depending on who puts in a raise. Although online games are generally too tight for that.

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Chopper

03-04-2008, 01:12 PM

#31 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

For what it's worth, in loose games I never raise UTG and LRR my top end depending on who puts in a raise. Although online games are generally too tight for that.

dude, you have to stop spitting these "kernels" out one at a time. lol. just give me the goods already!!

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Pythonic

03-05-2008, 03:51 PM

#32 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

For what it's worth, in loose games I never raise UTG and LRR my top end depending on who puts in a raise. Although online games are generally too tight for that.

dude, you have to stop spitting these "kernels" out one at a time. lol. just give me the goods already!!

HaHa!

frosst

03-05-2008, 08:57 PM

#33 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallhallen

I often just limp from UTG with Hands ike AA and KK and then put a big reraise if someone raises. If not then I try not to play big pot without good read.

I don't agree with this strategy. All it does is allow weaker hands to get in cheaper and with better odds. For example, if there are multiple limpers/callers and the first limper/caller after you calls your reraise, the next guy has just been given 2:1 on his call (not including the extra money already in the pot) If that guy calls, the next in line has 3+:1. I say pfr the same amount from UTG no matter what your range is. This is kinda related but instead of trying to make your AA in EP more profitable, maybe you should rethink the problem.......with the real problem being how to make EP more profitable....which is what some of these guys' answers are doing. It's generally accepted that players in a pot UTG have strong hands so use this to your advantage. C-bet more from the first 4 positions (meaing 2 blinds, UTG, UTg+1), when you have something and when you dont. It forces the people who respect you to fold marginal hands/better hands. But more importantly, it forces people who don't respect you to give you more money when you're holding greeat hands which = AA makes more money in EP. Going back to the limp big reraise, to me this is a very transparent move, as i'm only seeing it done with QQ+ at 10nl. So all you're doing is giving someone more information about your hand vs open betting the same amount everytime and them having to play a couple of streets before they can figure out if they are beat.

Chopper

03-05-2008, 10:11 PM

#34 (permalink)

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goooooood job, dude. explain to a "soulreader" that he sucks.

although, you may be technically right, i would read a little deeper into WHY Fnord said what he said. and, then, decide which way allows you to dodge more trouble and maximize the value of your bigger hands in very loose/call station types of games.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

frosst

03-06-2008, 12:38 AM

#35 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

if you read the post correctly, you would see i was quoting walhallen, not fnord..........although if you read fnords post correctly, we were pretty much saying the same thing, b/c he said

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

For what it's worth, in loose games I never raise UTG and LRR my top end depending on who puts in a raise. Although online games are generally too tight for that.

and unless i'm mistaken, your original post was in reference to online play, no?

SirBank

04-04-2008, 04:26 PM

#36 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2008

Posts: 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vrax

SirBank

04-04-2008, 04:27 PM

#37 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2008

Posts: 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vrax

pgil

04-04-2008, 04:49 PM

#38 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,103

This thread is kinda old, so I don't know if you are still concerned about big hands from EP, but I will weigh in anyways.

I would suggest adding more low PP's rather than the Ax's. The lower pairs are usually a lot easier to play, especially OOP. As long as noone is 3betting you too much, and you aren't getting owned postflop, you should be profitable with them even UTG. Plus, you will be raising a larger % from EP.

This allows you to force people to no longer just play for set value vs. your EP raises, because you rarely have a hand that will be stacking off unimproved. Your opponents will not adjust properly, and you will profit because of it.

Fnord wrote in a different thread something to the effect of why add more weak hands to your range for a certain action (I think it was cold calling on the button) when you can add more strength. I would personally take 22 over A6 from UTG at low stakes any day.

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

Miffed22001

04-04-2008, 05:03 PM

#39 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

if you arent getting action you arent raising enough.

Doing something that is fundamentally bad poker, LIMPING wont solve that.
FPS wont solve that.

What is you UTG range...?

Chopper

04-04-2008, 05:13 PM

#40 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

22+, AQs+, AK, KQs. raising all but 22-55.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Miffed22001

04-04-2008, 05:22 PM

#41 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

i wouldnt raise less than 66 UTG the rest is fine.
I think your having problems being played back at light by tp in position

Chopper

04-04-2008, 05:24 PM

#42 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

lol. i even played limit, and stole the blinds twice w/ AA from UTG.

its selective memory, but youre prolly right about being played at "light" by TP.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Dia46

04-10-2008, 08:07 AM

#43 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2008

Posts: 12

But you also don't wanna lose big time with AA and then ask your buddies for borrowing money because trust me, that sucks. I can barely remember when I won a big pot with AA.

The commonest mistake in history is underestimating your opponent; it happens at the poker table all the time.

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