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!Luck
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09-23-2010, 10:58 PM
Post subject: A8o @ 5nl super Isolating?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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UTG is a nit with VP/PFR of about 9/5, over about 50 hands, no reads on the other two besides stack size and their propensity to limp
Considering my position I think this is a good time to isolate/pick up dead money. UTG limper's range consists mainly of 22-99 (maybe 22-88) plus a KQs, though that's unlikely, since I have him as a nit, or he may be the type to limp AK, though, PFR of 5 is still semi wide.
When I raise, Against 22-99, I am fairly happy if he folds or if he calls, cause he will be easy to play against. The other two are prob fisher and have broad way and other sub TT type pocket hands. I would prefer my hand to be suited but this, I think is a good opportunity. Now, the question is on sizing, which I tend to go with 3x from bu + 1bb per limper, thus a raise of .30 is in order.
How many just fold this pre? How is my reasoning for isolating here?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
BB ($6.27)
UTG ($2.80)
UTG+1 ($5)
MP1 ($6.99)
MP2 ($4.66)
CO ($6.55)
Hero (Button) ($5.20)
SB ($3.58)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 8 , A
UTG calls $0.05, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, hero ....?
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tiltisthename
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High Card
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12
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without further reads on MP2 and CO (aside from limping) I just fold this one. IMO this hand doesn't play well MW so if all three comes along then we're probably in bad shape even IP. Again this is related to how MP2 and CO plays (do they limp-fold very often?) so unless we can be certain they're more of the limp-folder type then I just fold.
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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with 3 other limpers (especially if i have a suited hand) i usually just limp behind and hunt monsters, unless theres someoen annoyingly aggro in the blinds thats just gonna raise if i limp too.
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, A
UTG calls $0.05, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.25, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20, MP2 calls $0.20, CO calls $0.20
Flop: ($1.07) 9 , 6, 10 (4 players)
UTG bets $0.05, MP2 calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.05
Turn: ($1.27) 7 (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 bets $0.50, CO calls $0.50,
Now that I decided to raise. Flop comes gut shot. I see no value in raising. Now, the turn is the money card, since J8, is a fairly unlikely part of their range while slow played sets are and mainly ton of draws including Ax oh hearts. I feel, I have to raise here. The question is how much?
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celtic123
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: **Officially**The worst poster on FTR
Posts: 708
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Now that I decided to raise. Flop comes gut shot. I see no value in raising. Now, the turn is the money card, since J8, is a fairly unlikely part of their range while slow played sets are and mainly ton of draws including Ax oh hearts. I feel, I have to raise here. The question is how much?[/QUOTE]
Hearts have 9 outs.slow played a set have 10 outs. (discounting blockers)
I think that means 19 river cards have you beat.
If an 8 comes JJ beats you, my head hurts
How fishy is MP+2 ?, J8 fishy ?
$2.27 in the pot. you have $4.9.
3/4 - PSB maybe?
Edit :  Oops I said trips instead of set 
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Pop it to 2 even. Jam any non heart/8/K or board pairing river obv.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Agree with the others if it was suited I'd raise it pre probably. The only thing I disagree with is that someone can have a slowplayed "trips" 
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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If it's suited, then calling is probably best, but raising is okay too. If if's offsuit, then calling is probably bad, and raising is probably fine.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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I'm not really expecting to get folds if we iso here. I think raising is worse than folding/calling with it offsuit. If like one limper were to call then yeah I agree spoon. May be wrong on this but just how I see it.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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I agree with kmind, folding is best pre here imo after so many limpers. Calling is w/e since it could still be profitable. If there were only two limpers I'd be more inclined to pop it up, but since we'd have to make it through 5 players to take it down pre, the chances are too high it ends up multiway. Resulting in headaches for us postflop.
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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Anyone here disagree with dranger on the sizing of the raise?
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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What size would you make it?
Popping it to $2 puts his stack ~$1.80 and puts the pot over $4.50 making it a really easy river shove and he might station off with a set or something stupid like two pair.
I guess we could make it $1.75 or something to entice more calls, but the more money we can get in on the turn, the easier it will be for him to station on the river.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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I disagree with dranger on calling pre because our hand plays really terribly postflop multiway and iso'ing here is like super std for me ;(
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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Thanks for the input, especially about to iso here or not. The sizing comment was surprising only because, I did indeed pop it to 2.
Thanks.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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I like iso. Pay close attention to the 9/5 utg... even if he check/folds the flop, make a note on that. (if he c/folds on KT2, then you can just go ahead and make a note that he limp/calls small pp's utg)
I can't imagine calling ever beeing optimal. I might limp behind with Q3o if I know for a fact that UTG has KK+. But A8 does fairly poorly here as well.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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I still like folding better than anything.
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Icanhastreebet
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
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limp is okay if no one has better Axo in there range and they are limp/folding A2o-A8o or w/e but will get "married" to there flopped ace or w/e. If they are limp/folding worst Ax but calling all better it's like blah and if they are limp/calling worst Ax it's the easiest iso ever. Dunno why nobody mentions this for 15 posts...and yes I know it's a "small" part of their range but it's a pretty important part.
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
limp is okay if no one has better Axo in there range and they are limp/folding A2o-A8o or w/e but will get "married" to there flopped ace or w/e. If they are limp/folding worst Ax but calling all better it's like blah and if they are limp/calling worst Ax it's the easiest iso ever. Dunno why nobody mentions this for 15 posts...and yes I know it's a "small" part of their range but it's a pretty important part.
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what if hero has A2 instead
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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A2o is a very clear fold without extremely accurate reads. A2s, is call.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Limp is also ok if you get a handjob from Kira Knightley if you flop a pair.
How about we use some more realistic assumptions. If someone limps A2-A8o he also limps most broadways, some sc's and ofc's and small pairs... including a raising range that adds up to a vpip > 30. Nevermind that we already know that those are not in UTG's range. Since we have blockers that part of their range is only about 20% of what his imaginary limping range is, so I wouldn't get a super excited about that anyway.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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Icanhastreebet
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
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Quick note for people who doesn't understand peoples ranges get looser as more people limp in. Okay so say my CO VPIP over 100k hands is 24%, is it 24% when it's folded to me?, is it 24% when there's 1,2,.... limpers, is it 24% when there's an open/3b/flats etc in front?
No, it probably isn't 24% in any of these spots, but it most certainly is going to be VERY, VERY wide when there is a limper/2limpers in front, the UTG being 9/5 is irrelevant because the guys limping behind don't care about this. They are limping just because lollimpedpotaments, and their VPIP in this spot is most certainly v v high. I see no reason to think otherwise...Anyways I'm too lazy to do into why isoing here is probably bad but if someone would like to PM me in IRC I'll do it happily.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Maybe op can give an insight to what he thinks a standard overlimping range is at these tables.
The problem with limping behind is that you are often put in weired spots when one of them minbets and you are IP with A hi. You probably won't get too much value from worse pairs when you flop an ace (and Ax becomes even a smaller part of their range once you flop TP), utg could easily have AJ+ and you might valuetown yourself, etc.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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The over limping range is somewhere around QQ-22,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,76s,65s,A2o+,K To+,QTo+,JTo (I know some of the really passive players literal do not raise any hand, but not sure if it is worth including KK and AA).I have seen over limps with J8o. At these low stakes people can limp with nearly any two. The above range is 30% of hands, which can still be too tight. A8o has a 50% equity vs that range, but the more important thought is that if they are really really bad they will call with 100% of that range and likely play it fit foldish or just stick around with their draws, which my ace high will be ahead of. If they aren't too bad they will end up droping something like 50% of the above range and still play it passively. In the end I try hard to play as many pots against passive players as I can, because even I can't get into too much trouble.
!luck
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