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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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montauk
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I like the concept, and think it rings true as a general principle. That's not to say that taking down pots with C-Bets and the little things arent important.
But on their own they won't make you into a big winner.
Another thought i had, was something along the line of the 1% rule. Where basically all your winnings come from your best 1% of total hands, or losses for that matter.
So it is the big pots that make or break you.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I think these are good. I looked at my PT stats just now to check the 80/20 rule and of hands I haven't folded, I've won 75% of my total with 3-of-a-kind or better.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 4,995
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Kinda reminds me of Colin Powell's 40/70 rule.
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evoman
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 23
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I think thoughs rules might be a litle broad to be considered universal rules. The style I play is kind like short ball. I take doun so many small pots that when Im finaly in a big pot im playing with there chips. I realy think I make more money in all these small pots than in the big ones. I can back eny of this up with fact because I play live and dont have eny way of actualy tracking it. My only point is that your style, and the style of your oponents determins if these rules hold true for you or not.
P.S. I know I cant spell
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shysti
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Internetz
Posts: 838
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pretty standard
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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aok:
for made hands, it's more like 90/10, in my db anyway.
~30K hands, in descending order of value:
Net Winners:
full house (1.31%)
three of a kind (3.53%)
flush (1.57%)
straight (2.70%)
four of a kind (0.09%)
straight flush(0.01%)
Total: 9.21% of total hands
Net Losers:
two pair (14%)
one pair (44%)
high card (32%)
80/20 would be about right for starting hands though...
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Obviously this depends on who your opponents are. In general, there are two different types of bad players that we make money from: bad players who call too much, and bad players who fold too much. Against the first type of bad player, we might earn 80% of our money by making good hands like full houses, straights, and flushes and getting paid off, and 20% of our money by bluffing or taking down small pots with weaker hands. Against the second type of bad player, we might earn 80% of our money by bluffing them out of the pot and 20% of our money by making good hands.
Most 10NL and 25NL tables are full of the first type of player so aok's rule is usually applicable there. But you'll also see players who are down to the last money in their account and are scared to lose it all, so they won't call it off without the nuts or close to it. And finally, there are players at every level who will not only heavily contest pots with top pair weak kicker, but also with bottom pair, a draw, or absolutely nothing. You have to know your opponents. If you fold good one pair hands every time there's a bet and a raise on the flop, you're just transforming yourself from one type of fish into another.
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I consider myself a more able smallball player than big pot player (my biggest leak is getting value on my monster hands), but I would say that I double up 10% of the time thanks to many small pots and 90% of the time by winning one or more 100BB+ pots.
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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You make/lose the most money in the big pots. Tight players play more big pots with good starting hands. You will really lose money when you hang on to your good starting hands, but continue to make big pots unimproved.
Something doesnt sit right with me calling it an 80/20 rule.
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aokrongly
what would you call it
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The 90/10 rule.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
aok:
for made hands, it's more like 90/10, in my db anyway.
~30K hands, in descending order of value:
Net Winners:
full house (1.31%)
three of a kind (3.53%)
flush (1.57%)
straight (2.70%)
four of a kind (0.09%)
straight flush(0.01%)
Total: 9.21% of total hands
Net Losers:
two pair (14%)
one pair (44%)
high card (32%)
80/20 would be about right for starting hands though...
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aokrongly
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
If you fold good one pair hands every time there's a bet and a raise on the flop, you're just transforming yourself from one type of fish into another.
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I disagree. I think that it will work with aggressors as well as fish. It's just that 35% tables (which is how I label the type of play you're talking about) require a different strategy. However, the same 80/20 rule will apply only this time you're using the aggressor's weight against himself. But you'll be doing it with the top 20% and the aggressor will be losing to the top 20%. |
Unless the aggressor sucks, you won't make enough money off your nut hands to make up for all the times you fold the best hand to him. If you're folding to a bet and a raise unless you have 2 pair or better, then when you don't fold, he'll know you have a huge hand and won't put any more money in unless he has one too.
Quote:
I do agree that there are different ways this rule manifests itself. And maybe I haven't played a purely aggressive game enough to see myself make 80% of my money off bluffs. But I find it highly unusual. If that's the case with you, then you have absolutely cracked the case on how to let pots grow and then steal them. For that to be the case it would have to break both AOK's Highly Contested Pot Rule and the 80/20 rule. (and since i've never been wrong TWICE, that's impossible.) 
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Well first of all, I definitely haven't mastered the aggressive style. I'm trying to get better at it, but I'm not there yet. I've played against this type of player though and I think they can be really hard to play against. Second, I don't think anyone makes 80% of all their money off bluffs. But, there are opponents against whom that'll be true. For example, if you're playing heads-up against someone who folds too much, you'll make most of your money off bluffs.
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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Wooderson
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ft. Worth, Tejas
Posts: 136
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Let's just call it what it really is: the Pareto Principle.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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AOK,
The way to make lots of money playing NLHE is to put vastly different amounts of money into the pot with the same holding against different types of players.
3 and 4 way pots contested among sane players for meaningful stakes are often reduced to painted forehead problems.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wooderson
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qft
This is a general rule of thumb that applies to everything, or atleast is given as advice on everything.. "deal with the 20% biggest troublemakers in class and you'll solve 80% of the problem" etc.. a bit silly for anyone to claim it as their own invention..
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aokrongly
I like the 10/90
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Now THIS is a 10/90!
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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Wooderson
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ft. Worth, Tejas
Posts: 136
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wooderson
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qft
This is a general rule of thumb that applies to everything, or atleast is given as advice on everything.. "deal with the 20% biggest troublemakers in class and you'll solve 80% of the problem" etc.. a bit silly for anyone to claim it as their own invention.. |
Pareto is actually where the rule of thumb comes from.
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Wooderson
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ft. Worth, Tejas
Posts: 136
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TerryToma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aokrongly
I like the 10/90
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Now THIS is a 10/90!
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Shocking.
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,814
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Don't bet 90% of your stack on a hand that's not in the top 10% of your PT database.
LOL
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Be a nutcamping nit. There's nothing new about that advice for a beginner.
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aokrongly
AOK's 90/10 [Rule]
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It was 80/20 until I gave you the stats. I'm suing.
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