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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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An excellent post Aok. Ovbiously, these are the 2 things to look for, as it's the 2 pieces of information (other than noticing specific players) that we have when initially chooding a table.
Players to see the flop means overall looseness, and a high level of that means good table. Average pot size, to me, is even more important. Although I primarily play limit, I play some no-limit too, and a very high average pot size means some crazy action, and for those of us who know how to take advantage of that, that's the best gig in the joint.
I routinely pass on a 5-10% better to see the flop if it means a 20% greater average pot size. Just from experience, the very high average pot size gives greater rewards.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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As usual, good thread aokrongly.
In my experience, a high % OF PLAYERS SEEING THE FLOP typically indicates that the table has several bad players that are playing too many hands. AVERAGE POT SIZE is a bit trickier. On many sites they average the pot size over the past 10 hands. Ten hands isn't exactly a large sample size. One monster pot or a couple of unusually large ones will skew the number on the high side. Conversely, a short run of cold cards on an otherwise juicy table may deceive someone looking solely at the table stats from the lobby. I still use average pot size as an indicator, but I don't give it near as much weight as % PLAYERS SEEING THE FLOP. I'm basing my observations on $100NL 6-max on PokerStars.
Luckily PokerStars lets you sort the tables by various criteria. I click "Hide Full Tables" and set my first setting to "Limit" so I have $100NL at the top. My second is "Players" so I can quickly find which tables only need one more player. My third search criteria is "Players/Flop."
I initially choose the tables with the highest Players/Flop % and use the average pot size secondarily. I tend to choose the higher pot sizes, but I don't ignore smaller ones. At $100NL 6-max on Stars, a small pot size sometimes means weak players (ie. not much aggression, lots of limping/folding). This is the type of table I want to be at because they are the easiest to run over. You just continually push them into making bad decisions. The average pot size when you initially sit down doesn't matter much on a table like this because the action is quickly going to be flowing through you. They're going to have to put money into the pot if they want to play. I have never paid attention, but if you look at an average table with weak players and a low average pot size before and after a good LAggy player sits down, I'm willing to bet it increases once they arrive.
Something I think you're leaving out is the average stack size. I don't know any site that lists it, but you can quickly tell by looking at the table yourself. I will pass on a table with a couple of big stacks because it usually indicates other LAggy players and instead choose ones with several people with below the max. buy-in. These are typically weaker players. Obviously you're going to have them covered and they can't match your money when you're AI, but I still find I make much more money of these people than I do occassionally stacking a person with a stack that matches mine.
Of course all of this is just initial selection. There is no substitute for actually sitting at a table and getting a feel for it's texture. I'll often switch tables several times at the beginning of a session and in the middle of it until I settle into some that suit my tastes.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i look for a decent number of players seeing the flop and a medium to large average pot size.
Suggests too many seeing the flop (also preflop passivity) and that hands are being taken too far or not being bet hard enough or their are chasers.
Especially a good thing to look for in limit
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Jiggus
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At the $2 NL tables at Paradise, I don't have any problem finding tables with an average of 50% or more seeing the flop. That's important, for sure.
Average pot size is not as important, in my opinion, due to the variations in the game, but if I do see one that is loose and with a pretty high average pot, I'll join.
But there is one caveat. I will not join if there is one stack that is completely out of line with the rest, or if there are three or more stacks at over 3 x the buy in.
At Paradise, I often see one dude at a table with a $15 or even a $25 stack. I will not sit down at a table like that for obvious reasons, yet there are still 9 other players playing against this clown.
"Obvious reaons?" you ask. Well, I just don't want to get involved in a game where one player can do whatever he wants 'cause of his ridiculous stack size. But maybe that's just my thing.
I prefer to see a bunch of stacks under the buy in. This indicates weakness.
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shysti
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Internetz
Posts: 838
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Being new to NL ring coming from tournaments, I did a google search for nl ring books and this came up!
Im glad I found this because up until now I never even looked at those criteria, thanks!
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I always look for the biggest pot, then I look at highest % seeing the flop. The first because I want a table that's going crazy, where people love throwing big money around. Higher % seeing the flop is for cheaper draws and getting callers on my raises.
While I do use these criteria, there's no substitute for 2-3 orbits on the table to tell you just about everything you need to know about the table. I also want to sit with the bigstacks to my right and smallstacks to my left given the choice. Lately I've even gotten up and sat down somewhere else when a space came available when the one good player had position on me.. makes all the difference in the world.
10NL and 20NL shorthanded ring.
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andy609
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: To the left of the dead money
Posts: 108
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I saw as a suggestion on here a while back that for $10 NL, you should play with at least a $2 average pot (20x bb) and at least 40% players/flop. That is what I have gone by ever since. I'm currently playing at UB, but I can't seem to find the numbers there.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,981
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i just sort partypoker by pot size and queue myself into the top 12 or so.
This is probably sloppy, but I just don't think table selection is a huge issue at a site where 10 player turnover occurs every 30 minutes or so.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I tend to agree with Renton. Player turnover at tables is so high at Party that I don't do much scouting before I sit down. Of course I start with the tables with the largest pot sizes, but I find that those often don't correlate with pot size after I sit down.
I guess my table selection really takes place after two or three orbits. That's usually how long it takes for me to decide a table is bad, especially if I already have PT stats on some of the players. How do I define bad?
1. Table VPIP below 25%. It's very tough for me to find anything over 35% at Party 50NL.
2. One or more ggressive player (>~7% PFR) behind me.
3. No loose players (>30% VPIP) players in front of me.
4. More than two players short-stacked.
If any of those criteria are met, I usually join another waitlist and leave right before I post my next BB.
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KingLizard
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jiggus
But there is one caveat. I will not join if there is one stack that is completely out of line with the rest, or if there are three or more stacks at over 3 x the buy in.
"Obvious reaons?" you ask. Well, I just don't want to get involved in a game where one player can do whatever he wants 'cause of his ridiculous stack size. But maybe that's just my thing.
I prefer to see a bunch of stacks under the buy in. This indicates weakness.
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My philosophy as well.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Heh, I love it when a guy is out-of-line big. He's probably getting cocky  Often they're floaters too, so they will call down your made hands if you fake donk-bluffs. A bunch of guys at 3x the buy-in or more is annoying though.
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Hawk
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 367
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Looks like the post was removed. Was it outdated?
Either way, this should probably be removed from the digest.
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courtiebee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: glorious bc
Posts: 3,551
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Done. Thanks, Hawkfan.
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http://donkeybrains.wordpress.com/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,077
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This is kinda Bullshit. Every post made by OP is being deleted.
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,814
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Looks like he's puting up his add in his avatar and is moving off of FTR. Bye AoK, thanks. I think someone should ban him before he removes all of FTR's content.
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Hawk
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 367
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And remove his avatar too.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,814
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Too late, it's all gone.
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