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Santo2True

04-13-2010, 03:54 AM Post subject: 8To gets pounded on

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2010

Location: On The EAST side

Posts: 186

UTG+1 is 18/8/1 so I'm cautious of getting involved from the start knowing he's going to have a strong range here.

I feel like I kindof lost myself in this hand, but after seeing what he showed up with I realized how far ahead I was and why he took the lines that he did.

Did I play this hand right or was the raises foolish to try and get more value?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($3.45)
UTG+1 ($16.60)
MP1 ($6)
MP2 ($8.70)
CO ($3)
Hero (Button) ($24.75)
SB ($5.45)
BB ($5)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8

, 10

1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero bets $1.50, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($3.60) Q

, 6

, J

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.50, Hero raises to $4, UTG+1 calls $2.50

Turn: ($11.60) 9

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.25, Hero raises to $6, UTG+1 raises to $11.10 (All-In), Hero calls $5.10

River: ($33.80) 2

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $33.80 | Rake: $1.65

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Santo2True

04-13-2010, 04:03 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2010

Location: On The EAST side

Posts: 186

Preflop, I'm looking to charge the limpers from the button. UTG calls I know his range is strong and conists of {AJs+, 77+, AQo+}

Flop, I think this is a pretty good flop over all. It hits his range pretty good and leaves me a nice out
His bet looks like a standard cbet so I raise to add some value and see if he's folding right here.
When he calls the raise I'm thinking he might be on a draw with like AJs+

Turn, good and bad... he may have hit his flush but I got my straight. His small bet confuses me completely. Another raise here thinking I'll take it down and I get shoved on. I'm thinking the flush gets a check/shove here so why the cbet/shove? It seems odd and I don't think he's got the flush

River...FU&&&^^%%$$$$

"Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't interrupt those who are doing it"

L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

04-13-2010, 04:48 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2007

Posts: 833

L_Clan_Sup3rMaN is on a distinguished road

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santo2True

1 - Preflop, I'm looking to charge the limpers from the button. 2 - UTG calls I know his range is strong and conists of {AJs+, 77+, AQo+}

3 - Flop, I think this is a pretty good flop over all. It hits his range pretty good and leaves me a nice out
4 - His bet looks like a standard cbet so I raise to add some value and see if he's folding right here.
When he calls the raise I'm thinking he might be on a draw with like AJs+

5 - Turn, good and bad... he may have hit his flush but I got my straight. His small bet confuses me completely. Another raise here thinking I'll take it down and I get shoved on. I'm thinking the flush gets a check/shove here so why the cbet/shove? It seems odd and I don't think he's got the flush

6 - River...FU&&&^^%%$$$$

1 - Raising the button is fine here.
2 - What are you basing this on? Over how many hands were your stats?
3 - Why do you think this is a pretty good flop? And what do you mean over all? If it hits his range more than yours, how can this be a good flop? It leaves you four outs to a straight which is not good.
4 - You are the preflop raiser. He is donk betting into you, not cbetting. What is your reason for raising here after previously stating that this flop hit his range well? Raise more than to $4 unless you have better reads that his folding to such a weak flop raise often.
5 - Miracle card. Another bet sizing problem. Shove over his small bet.
6 - Irrelevant. Only what happens until the money goes in is relevant.

Your headed in the right direction by thinking about your opponents cards and what they might be thinking.

Santo2True

04-13-2010, 06:15 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2010

Location: On The EAST side

Posts: 186

Well here's my way of thinking, though it may be incorrect. I think the flop hitting his range is good for me because if I make my straight then he will find it hard to fold after putting more money in after calling my raise. I expect I should have realized this clearer and shoved on the turn but at the time I was thinking he might fold to a shove but stay in to small raise, I did not expect his shove here and really counted on a call/fold...
The whole line was strange for me and I guess I put to much thought into the hand if anything. But I couldn't see raising with 8To and then folding when I hit a flop like that.

I'm sure I'm way off, but this is why I'm here

"Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't interrupt those who are doing it"

JKDS

04-13-2010, 07:53 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: Chandler, AZ

Posts: 1,024

Pre seems pretty terrible considering the number of shorties at the table (specifically mp1 and the blinds).

Post: huh? Ok...theres a few assumptions here.

1) Villain will only call your raise: This isnt gonna be true alot...you say the board hits him so his range is fairly strong. The board is also fairly drawy though, and utg isnt a full stack either so he can very easily shove over...in which case its a simple exercise to determine the ev of calling (we cant do so profitably).
2) Supposing villain calls, we make enough money on the turn to justify burning it on the flop. KT is certainly in villains range, as are flush draws, so i find it hard to believe we have a full 4 outs. But with exactly 4, we;ll hit the turn about 8% of the time giving about 1:11.5 odds...we risk 4 to win...lets say 20. then our odds here are 1:5. This is vastly lower than the odds we hit even with a full 4 outs which seems unlikely. Even if after villain calls on the flop, we get to check through to the river...we still dont make enough to justify the raise.

So in the best possible case...we might make enough from him folding to justify it being 0EV...but i doubt this too since he donked on a flop that hits his range harder than yours.

Also: Cbet is not the same as Donk bet. A cbet is from the initial bettor and can be done with a large amount of your range. A donk bet is typically far different in that someone who is out of position decides to bet into the initial raiser. Basically in terms of strength...a donk bet is alot scarier than a cbet.

Thats pretty much it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

Hoopy

04-13-2010, 01:09 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Riverballs

Posts: 777

Hoopy is an unknown quantity at this point

Just fold pre flop - the short stacked blinds are still to act and if they shove you'll either have to fold if they are like 8/7 or call if they are a bit looser/aggro and be a dog to their range.

As for his pre flop range - he never has QQ+ or AQ unless you have a read that he likes to slowplay. Flop semi bluff with 3 outs seems bad since if he does lead a flush draw (which we don't know) your raise gives him correct odds to call + what does he fold that we beat (maybe a J?).

On the turn he doesn't bothered by the club - you are likely drawing dead or facing something like KcQs.

Santo2True

04-13-2010, 01:33 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2010

Location: On The EAST side

Posts: 186

thanks for the insight, i think what the play should have been was to just call flop, turn and fold river.. i had horrible pot control and due to that i let him get a big pot other wise I would have loss marginal as I'm sure he would have shoved on river regardless. Thanks for clearing up the donkbet vs cbet thing too. Makes sense since I was the preflop better and continuation would have came from me.

My read on him was actually pretty good and he showed up with KK, unfortunately one of those kings was a club

@JKDS.. I really have to start using these figures more often. But I'm still learning. Thanks for the great post

"Those who say it can't be done, shouldn't interrupt those who are doing it"

Hoopy

04-13-2010, 02:07 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Riverballs

Posts: 777

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santo2True

thanks for the insight, i think what the play should have been was to just call flop, turn and fold river..t

Ok so you have 3 outs on the flop (9c is not clean) that translates to a 7% chance to hit on the turn card. He's giving you odds of 1:3.4 or around 23% and you need direct pot odds of 14:1 to make this call, you need to be getting 10.7 x $1.5=$16.05 every time you hit to make your call profitable.

He does not have that much left in his stack + your draw is not to the nuts.

Time to fold.

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