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Chopper
Old 11-16-2007, 02:16 AM     Post subject: 6max question for regular posters?? #1 (permalink)  
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some of you are more into teaching/advising in this forum than posting. i am calling out to you. the rest of us can just listen, if possible.

if the listening posters havent read sauce's 6max guide, they need to now.

in regards to his post, what adjustments would you make to a <50NL game?

he is doing a lot of 3betting, which i like, but it seems we dont have the respect, or attention, of our villains down here. i like his ranges, especially as position grows later (although it gets a bit wide for lower stakes, imo), but how aggressive are we going to be post flop when we miss? how often are we actually going to 3bet with +EV when holding 78s?

it seems the name of the game is still "fit or fold," but its turning into "nutcamping" like full ring has done, imo. this isnt poker anymore. and, i am having trouble toning down the aggression. i dont seem to be able to pound big raises in on scare cards anymore...i've lost my FE it seems. cbetting seems to be called more. minraises are prevalent to "block."

imo, it should be simple enough to beat, but the game is getting stupid quickly.

any adjustments from those of you who tried to implement his ideas down lower? would you tighten up a bit off his ranges? would you bluff less? if so, what would YOUR criteria be?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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Halv
Old 11-16-2007, 06:59 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 You answered it yourself, really - nutcamp. Big pots for big hands. Flop sets get paid. Bluff less, valuebet more.

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Chopper
Old 11-16-2007, 12:50 PM #3 (permalink)  
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thats ghey. lower stakes sucks.

but, we already knew that. problem is...when i have to nutcamp, and everyone else is doing the same, i sit like a 15/10 rock-nit. and that does shit to improve my game.

it turns into a bunch of rocks trying to avoid being blinded off in a cash game waiting for "set over set" situations.

thats not poker, not that i've ever officially played "real" poker...yet...its dominoes for 4 year olds. but, with a little milk money.

ghey.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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Chopper
Old 11-16-2007, 12:55 PM #4 (permalink)  
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my question is: how do you exploit these nitty tendencies of others?

if they all play "dominoes," then, they are exploitable. i would love some ideas as to what you've found. i cant believe that "if you cant beat em, join em" is the ideal philosophy.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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Halv
Old 11-16-2007, 01:04 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Are they really nits at sub-50NL? In that case turn it around - rob them blind. If they are really waiting for sets to put their chips in you can pick up lots of pots on the flop when they c/f unimproved. If they wake up and want to make a big pot, get out of the way unless you have a setbuster (hidden straights ftw).

This is not at all what I remember the lower stakes to be like, though. In my experience they are all calling stations. True, this was a year and a half ago, but when I was sweating my lil' brother on FTP 10NL the other day the tendency definitely was that they never fold. Maybe you could work on your table selection?

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PapalRage
Old 11-16-2007, 03:08 PM #6 (permalink)  
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i have been playing 50nl 6-max at FTP for the last 5k hands i played since switching from 200nl FR and the crap that players call you with is astounding. I have been trying to follow sauce's guide for the most part, but not 3-betting nearly as wide a range. The main adjustment i made was to stop firing 2nd barrells with nothing even when scare cards hit. I will rarely 3-bet with sc's, but only if i have a read that a player is somewhat competent. Untill then, i assume they suck and will most likely just call in position.

Also, try not to just 'improve your play' but try to best take advantage of your opponenets mistakes. If they call too much, value bet more.
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biondino
Old 11-16-2007, 03:15 PM #7 (permalink)  
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What the hell games are you playing, Chopper? I don't even look for the high-action tables yet every one I sit down at at $50NL at Full Tilt has a VP of >40%. And $50nl has historically been the "nitty" level - maybe $25NL is that nowadays?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
he is doing a lot of 3betting, which i like, but it seems we dont have the respect, or attention, of our villains down here.
Really? In my games you have the laggs and maniacs, who call or raise your 3-bets, and the weaktights and taggs, who fold without a monster. Low-level fish are terrified of the 3-bet in my experience - I am amazed you're having such bad luck. Are you sure you're not just running bad? Perhaps bad table selection?
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Chopper
Old 11-16-2007, 03:52 PM #8 (permalink)  
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no, its not table selection. i have been extremely anal about that and seat selection the past 60 days...once again. i had gotten away from that part of the game.

it very well could be running bad, but its also overaggro in marginal spots...adding to the running bad.

i know they are terrified of 3bets, but they seem to call a lot of cbets and 2barrels lately with out TP+. i see a lot of underpairs going to showdown, 2nd pairs, etc. but i see a lot of minraising to slow you down, too. when you raise over them, they call.

so, i guess i misspoke with the nitty comment. they are more call station types. but, i guess you need to hit a hand and valuebet the shit out of it...and let variance take its course?

i would like to 3bet more, but i dont see the point...it seems to bloat a pot when you cant bump them out...requiring you to hit your hand, too.

i guess small ball may be a better approach?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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biondino
Old 11-16-2007, 04:20 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Well, why not try the opposite - table selecting tight tables with low average pots. These are where I win the most consistently, and I suspect I have a similar game to you. Either way, it might be a different experience and you can see how it makes you think?

Are you selecting tables with high average pots? Because it follows that these are the ones with the most raising and least folding. These days I select high VP but low ave pot tables and hope that they're a bunch of weak loose passives. It works, by and large (14ptbb/100 this month).
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Warpe
Old 11-16-2007, 05:39 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Beat up on nitty tables, nutcamp on loose ones, adapt as necessary. If you're on FTP, datamine before you sit down.



 
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bigspenda73
Old 11-16-2007, 05:42 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 I remember running like 15/12 over 10k hands at 50nl 6max and making 8ptbb/100.

Then I realized I could do the same thing at Full Ring with less variance all the while being hit by the blinds half as often.
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Chopper
Old 11-16-2007, 06:24 PM #12 (permalink)  
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thanks, spenda. i just sat down and REALLY studied sauce's guide last night. i am not going to 3bet like a monkey, but i am going to play his range and raise a shitload of flops and cbet them w/ and w/o a hand.

it already paid dividends. ran 14/12/3...got stacked twice...and still ran 15/100 over 500 hands. small sample, ldo, but it felt very good. i didnt have to make but one hard decision. the rest were reacting to me. i had one table beat into such submission it went from 33/7 to 25/1 in a matter of 75 hands. they locked up. they adjusted and started playing back selectively...and i left after 2 orbits. it was so easy to see.

hopefully, this plays out more the same...as that may be how to beat the nits and call stations simultaneously.

and, warpe, {bad joke coming} i wouldnt play FTP with YOUR bowling balls. however, i may, if this strat continues to fold shit and force crap to overplay against your real holdings.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Seasider
Old 11-16-2007, 10:49 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I have also been noticing the min bet a lot more recently. Generally I think it seems to be a monster, or am I just being unlucky?

I think there was some post on 2+2 about how super duper min raises were, or I may have imagined that??
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Ash256
Old 11-17-2007, 02:24 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 Nutcamp against the awful majority, piss on the regs who think they're TAGs but they suck.
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Chopper
Old 11-17-2007, 05:13 AM #15 (permalink)  
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i hate to say this, but i cant seem to get a firm handle on these donkeys. i doubt i am one, except sometimes, but i see them show down such shit. and bet-sizing is terrible. and they chase. and they overbet. on and on and on.

i'm starting to get adjusted, but wondered why i went down $40 in 4 hands today...looked at the HHs...and it was practically the deck setting me up. there just wasnt much i did wrong, taking into consideration my opponents.

maybe i'm running a bit poorly, but i cant help but think i should be a lot more consistent. 12k breakeven stretches shouldnt happen at 25NL, imo.

i also keep forgetting the variance is greater at 6max. maybe i just need to settle down with a bottle of chill pills.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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kmind
Old 11-19-2007, 04:28 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 Where do you play? I play at Stars and have been 3-betting light, been 3-bet light by certain players, and I have even 4-bet light with success. I'm no maniac at this but if I have position and someone is raising a lot but not calling 3-bets I will do it more often. Esp. if they fold flop a lot, but you say they aren't. I do this often to blind stealers as well as it really narrows their calling range. I am no expert at this stuff so I may be off but it's worked for me lately. I will admit that the suckouts are really big down here and can cause some bad tiltage.
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Chopper
Old 11-19-2007, 02:00 PM #17 (permalink)  
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i am playing at AP right now. i have seen a bit of a different "style" of player.

where at stars i would see mostly slaa's on PT, at AP is see more LAP's. i see more call stations and loose-passives.

i "cut my teeth" on stars, so am used to the low-stakes aggression. however, it causes me to overplay a bit into all the post-flop-passives i am finding at AP.

a couple of simple adjustments, and i'll be fine. i just like to bitch when i'm not running at 12 ptbb/100.....so, like all the time...lol.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Da GOAT
Old 11-19-2007, 03:21 PM #18 (permalink)  
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how the hell has chopper made 1700+posts?? WTF is going onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!! lol
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Ash256
Old 11-19-2007, 04:47 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 Nutcamping is awesome at a good microstakes game - I'm talking serious nutcamping, 14/12 and stuff. I found cutting tough spots out of my game increased my winrate.
Listen to my music
 
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Old 11-19-2007, 05:31 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i am playing at AP right now. i have seen a bit of a different "style" of player.

where at stars i would see mostly slaa's on PT, at AP is see more LAP's. i see more call stations and loose-passives.

i "cut my teeth" on stars, so am used to the low-stakes aggression. however, it causes me to overplay a bit into all the post-flop-passives i am finding at AP.

a couple of simple adjustments, and i'll be fine. i just like to bitch when i'm not running at 12 ptbb/100.....so, like all the time...lol.
on AP you bet for value, check mo0re often for a free card and generally rule.

If you want ill sit and watch if you log and AIM me.

(Edit: i keep meaning to get spenda's sn on AP....)
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Warpe
Old 11-19-2007, 06:39 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
Nutcamping is awesome at a good microstakes game - I'm talking serious nutcamping, 14/12 and stuff. I found cutting tough spots out of my game increased my winrate.
QFT

also:
1. open more tables
2. profit



 
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