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martindcx1e
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05-02-2006, 03:01 AM
Post subject: 67s in CO against button re-raise. What's your play on flop?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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You are in CO w/ 6d7d. There is 1 limper and you raise to 4x BB. The Button min re-raises you and the blinds and limper fold. You both have full stacks and you call. You are pretty confident villain has AA-QQ, and you know he is more than willing to get it AI w/ an overpair. Flop comes Td 6h 3d. What's your move and why?
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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If I was OESDF then I would bet/raise/push this.Ohterwise with no backup straight draw and a flush draw not to the nuts(villain could be reaising AKs or AQs sensing a position raise) I lean towards check/folding the flop.
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Fnord
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05-02-2006, 03:43 AM
Post subject: Re: 67s in CO against button re-raise. What's your play on f
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#3 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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18 bets in the pot, 84 behind.
My biggest concern is a turn-fuck. Something like check/push, bet/push is the line to beat.
Lets say worst case he pots the flop and we call.
That makes it 54 bets in the pot with 66 behind. YUCK.
If he goes half pot it's 36 bets with 75 behind, dangerous, but we might get off easy.
What's his c-bet size? How hard is he going to push on the turn? What are the chances he doesn't have QQ+? What is your chance of pushing him off his over-pair with an aggro flop line?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
I lean towards check/folding the flop.
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Nice laydown.
17,820 games 0.040 secs 445,500 games/sec
Board: Td 7h 3d
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 48.9394 % 48.94% 00.00% { 7d6d }
Hand 2: 51.0606 % 51.06% 00.00% { QQ+ }
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
I lean towards check/folding the flop.
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Please stop leaning this way immediately.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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weak lead, call?
check call turn check push?
i hate all lines but you i think you have to bet.
I think fnords question of how will opp react to you IF you raise his ass at any point is the most important.
Looking at it we want to play a decent sized pot (assuming that opp wont fold AA-QQ very well if we improve) however we dont have a great deal of folding equity here.
i think i go bet, get raised call. check bet check raise all in. But thats a horrible line...its practically 50/50 with zero fold equity considering opps probable range for us
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dpe8598
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 261
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You said in your original post that you know he has AA-QQ and he is "more than willing to get it all in with an overpair". So based on your assumptions we know that he is calling any bets. There are probably exceptions, but you should assume that. Now, with all that being considered, you still have a great hand. Usually I would be very aggressive with this hand, but knowing you probably are not pushing him off his hand, I would probably play it slower and make him pay if I improve.
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twosevoff
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 526
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Check raise enough to commit yourself to the hand. If he folds then great, if not then you're a very slight dog with more than enough in the pot to make it +EV, so enjoy the gamBOOL.
I could also make the case for taking a bet-reraise push line on this flop, but I would never fold or check-call here.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by twosevoff
Check raise enough to commit yourself to the hand. If he folds then great, if not then you're a very slight dog with more than enough in the pot to make it +EV, so enjoy the gamBOOL.
I could also make the case for taking a bet-reraise push line on this flop, but I would never fold or check-call here.
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There's only 2.5BB's in the pot besides the $ that is ours and villain's. I don't think that is "more than enough." We are only a slight dog but we are still a dog. We have close to zero folding equity as well.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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The more aggressive the opponent is, the less inclined to play this hand any further as a passive draw machine you should be. That's because he often doesn't have a high pocket, and he almost always pots it on the flop. If you're going to stick around, then you need to put pressure on him. I just don't like it either way.
This is one of those hands where you pay too much to draw, and when you hit your hand the action evaporates like a ghost of what could have been if you're wrong about the high pocket business.
If you're very sure the high pocket is there, then I stick around for a reasonable bet for one more card if the opponent isn't disciplined enough to escape high pockets when they're beat.
You see, it's not whether someone has a high pocket that matters. It's whether they can let go of them if they have to.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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piratepeaty
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
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I'm playing this hand aggressive. Against most opponents I'm leading this heavy and probably 3betting all in on a raise. I'll also be sure to play a set in the same fashion later.
If he just calls, that's fine too we have a lot of outs and may be able to save some money when we miss. That said, the turn is player dependent. If he is prone to bet big when checked to I favor betting a small about and call down with an overpair, I like betting to control the action. If he is passive and likely to bet small in proportion to the pot when checked to I like to check call.
The river then plays itself.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by piratepeaty
I'm playing this hand aggressive. Against most opponents I'm leading this heavy and probably 3betting all in on a raise. I'll also be sure to play a set in the same fashion later.
If he just calls, that's fine too we have a lot of outs and may be able to save some money when we miss. That said, the turn is player dependent. If he is prone to bet big when checked to I favor betting a small about and call down with an overpair, I like betting to control the action. If he is passive and likely to bet small in proportion to the pot when checked to I like to check call.
The river then plays itself.
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i quite like this
thinking on it i donk into him on the flop expecting a raise and i think i then call but lead the turn regardless hard, perhaps just push or at least enough to tell the guy were playing for stacks. If we want to play i guess we play hard and we get losts of money in arly so there's no getting away from it on later streets becasue the pot odds say so
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
If I was OESDF then I would bet/raise/push this.Ohterwise with no backup straight draw and a flush draw not to the nuts(villain could be reaising AKs or AQs sensing a position raise) I lean towards check/folding the flop.
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lol
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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and you know he is more than willing to get it AI w/ an overpair
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does this extend to later streets? Like is he going to pay off our trips/2p/flush with an overpair on 4th or 5th street?
Makes a big difference... and you are basically saying we have zero fold equity here so there's no point in trying to get it allin on the flop. c/c, c/c?
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
does this extend to later streets? Like is he going to pay off our trips/2p/flush with an overpair on 4th or 5th street?
Makes a big difference... and you are basically saying we have zero fold equity here so there's no point in trying to get it allin on the flop. c/c, c/c?
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Yes, it extends to later streets. Villain will likely pay us off even w/ 3 to the flush or w/ a 2nd 6 on the board. And yes, I'm saying we have 0 FE, and I think c/c, c/c is the best line. Congrats to Lukie 
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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There is only one play here. Check when he bets ALL IN. Thats is thats the only play I see here. If you are calling the raise preflop expecting a better flop than this your asking for a lot.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
There is only one play here. Check when he bets ALL IN. Thats is thats the only play I see here. If you are calling the raise preflop expecting a better flop than this your asking for a lot.
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Are you saying we should c/r AI? If so, why?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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opp isnt folding any overpair if we c/r all in ith prflop action
he might fold AK
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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i didn't read the responses
check push prob
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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you both want to get it all in as quickly as possible
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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Quote:
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you both want to get it all in as quickly as possible
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Yeah come to think of it I change my mind as well.9 outs for the fluhs,and if your cards are live for two pair or trips even better.Push.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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You are still an underdog to an overpair and you have no fold equity. Why get it AI?
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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Check raise half your stack on the flop, if he doesnt stick it in, open push any turn.
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
Quote:
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you both want to get it all in as quickly as possible
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Yeah come to think of it I change my mind as well.9 outs for the fluhs,and if your cards are live for two pair or trips even better.Push. |
Do you guys always like to get all of your chips in the middle when you are an underdog (albeit it a slight one here)?
The best way to win this hand, which the last time I checked is usually the goal, is to try and determine whether villian will fold to pressure on later streets (as mentioned several times before). For example, say you know for 100% certainty that villian will hold his high PP to the end. Are you now willing to play this same hand 1,000 times in a row?
Personally, I check here and call any reasonable bet.
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GatorJH
Quote:
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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
Quote:
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you both want to get it all in as quickly as possible
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Yeah come to think of it I change my mind as well.9 outs for the fluhs,and if your cards are live for two pair or trips even better.Push. |
Do you guys always like to get all of your chips in the middle when you are an underdog (albeit it a slight one here)?
The best way to win this hand, which the last time I checked is usually the goal, is to try and determine whether villian will fold to pressure on later streets (as mentioned several times before). For example, say you know for 100% certainty that villian will hold his high PP to the end. Are you now willing to play this same hand 1,000 times in a row?
Personally, I check here and call any reasonable bet. |
waht are you gona do in a 50/50 situation when he pots two streets into your 100bbs stack.
with 200bbs stacks we have a lot more options, with 100bbs not a lot.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Based on the assumption of no fold equity and full stack implied odds on all streets, there's no reason to check raise or push or check push or bet/3bet or anything of the sort, like some of you guys are suggesting.
THINK
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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17.5 bb of dead money and a coinflip to win + a trivial amount (maybe 10%) of fold equity.
Check/push seems pretty +EV to me...
EDIT: I am not saying its the only viable move, but as far as a guaranteed +EV situation it is a viable move.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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yeah it's +EV.
given our assumptions, it's clearly not the most +EV move though.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
yeah it's +EV.
given our assumptions, it's clearly not the most +EV move though.
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I think it depends on how easily villain lets our hero see the turn and river cards. If he comes out with a PSB on this flop I probably push (or at least raise 3x with intention of calling a push).
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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i use all the different lines here depending on history with villian. against complete unknown i check/push or bet/3 bet allin.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i use all the different lines here depending on history with villian. against complete unknown i check/push or bet/3 bet allin.
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I agree
but in this specific situation (speaking on a hypothetical level where the guy never folds and we have full stack implied odds), neither line makes sense.
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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And btw, against that hypothetical opponent who never lays down an overpair regardless of what comes on later streets, remember to use the same line if instead of 67s you hold 66 or AA here. Makes more sense now?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
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why?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
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if you know you're a 10:1 favorite and the guy won't fold, wouldn't it make sense to just push, regardless of how deep you are?
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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The "does it makes more sense" comment wasnt aimed at your reply Lukie. I am just saying that it is not realistic to have an opponent that NEVER folds an overpair. I agree that if there is such an opponent there are lots of other lines that are more +EV to use here but I just see no reason to start discussing them. Because in our experience will all know that if for example you check/call and a diamond comes on the turn it will usually kill your action against AA-QQ (while if a blank comes even a half aware opponent will kill your odds to continue) we all tended to suggest a quick way to get the money in on the flop where we have a virtual coinflip (with some dead money in the pot) as the best way to play the hand.
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
You are still an underdog to an overpair and you have no fold equity. Why get it AI?
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You are not an underdog. You are 52% to hit two pair or a flush. Not adding a % for the fold factor. For me the correct play is all in. Suppose you raise 20% of your stack. And you don't hit the turn. Than what? Seeing as I play suited connectors a lot. This is a play I love to use. I find it very profitable.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
You are still an underdog to an overpair and you have no fold equity. Why get it AI?
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You are not an underdog. You are 52% to hit two pair or a flush. Not adding a % for the fold factor. For me the correct play is all in. Suppose you raise 20% of your stack. And you don't hit the turn. Than what? Seeing as I play suited connectors a lot. This is a play I love to use. I find it very profitable. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Nice laydown.
17,820 games 0.040 secs 445,500 games/sec
Board: Td 7h 3d
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 48.9394 % 48.94% 00.00% { 7d6d }
Hand 2: 51.0606 % 51.06% 00.00% { QQ+ }
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by m3laNcholy
The "does it makes more sense" comment wasnt aimed at your reply Lukie. I am just saying that it is not realistic to have an opponent that NEVER folds an overpair. I agree that if there is such an opponent there are lots of other lines that are more +EV to use here but I just see no reason to start discussing them. Because in our experience will all know that if for example you check/call and a diamond comes on the turn it will usually kill your action against AA-QQ (while if a blank comes even a half aware opponent will kill your odds to continue) we all tended to suggest a quick way to get the money in on the flop where we have a virtual coinflip (with some dead money in the pot) as the best way to play the hand.
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i agree
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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Fnord, I don't think I understand you response. If you are saying this is a good lay down. Than there is now way he should be making the call pre flop. If you are calling raises with suited connectors expeting to get better flops than this. You are truely not getting enough out of your cards.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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I like a check push.
If you bet into him, don't call. If you do, you are just making the pot huge and turning yourself into a calling station on a draw and giving villain control of the hand. Same with a check call. Why not just type in the chat: "I'm on a draw, bet as you wish."
The only way to play this hand is aggressively, and the sooner you get it all in in the middle, the higher the likelyhood you'll win the pot.
min bet push
check raise flop. check raise all in turn
check raise all in flop
not: check call, check call, check fold. WEAK!
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
Fnord, I don't think I understand you response. If you are saying this is a good lay down. Than there is now way he should be making the call pre flop. If you are calling raises with suited connectors expeting to get better flops than this. You are truely not getting enough out of your cards.
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he was being sarcastic
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bearing
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Uk
Posts: 33
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with this many outs (14?) and a pot bet on the flop being 10.5 bb.. you'd be left with about 85 bb on the turn if you check/call. How many times will one of your outs hit on the turn? 1 in4, 1 in 5 is it?
if he's gonne put his money in regardless of the turn card when you hit a different way to play could be check/call. You'll spend 42bb - 52bb, but when you hit you'll get paid off 85. Sounds like profit to me!
You can then perhaps justify folding the turn to another pot bet since theres no need to put this much money in with no chance of making enough money later when you hit.
Im not saying this is what i'd do every time or that but it is another way to consider playing it.
Also, is there no chance the guy has AK/AQ at all here? TT?
If he has AK/AQ how often is he gonna pot the flop and if you call and check the turn, pot the turn with the Ace high he has most of the time?
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you cant handle the truth!
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