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5NL - JJ as overpair in position vs unknown

  
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-25-2009, 02:01 AM     Post subject: 5NL - JJ as overpair in position vs unknown #1 (permalink)  
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 Line check:
How's flatting pre here vs unknown? Another thing..his bet size on the turn is fucked, I don't really know if he's strong or weak here, so I just called as I saw no point in raising. River I don't think I can check behind given his horrid line even though he's probably on wiffed overcards, but do you guys like betting smaller, maybe 50-60c or some weak amount to suck him in?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($8.26)
UTG+1 ($4.97)
MP1 ($1.46)
MP2 ($0.65)
CO ($9.95)
Hero (Button) ($5)
SB ($8.32)
BB ($6)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, J
4 folds, CO bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.47) 5, 5, 4 (2 players)
CO bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.97) 7 (2 players)
CO bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35

River: ($1.67) 7 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $0.85,
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Kbryce23
Old 03-25-2009, 02:05 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Why not 3bet vs unkown in the CO?
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yourfather
Old 03-25-2009, 02:29 AM #3 (permalink)  
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if your not gonna 3 bet raise the flop.
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-25-2009, 02:34 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Okay could you guys elaborate a bit:

Why 3-bet preflop?
***Why raise flop? I don't get why raising the flop here > calling.

The problem with this hand is I know absolutely nothing about villains tendencies. I thought about it some more and I figured if I plan on betting the river when checked to I should raise the turn. Thoughts on raising turn as well?
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Kbryce23
Old 03-25-2009, 02:47 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Okay could you guys elaborate a bit:

Why 3-bet preflop?
***Why raise flop? I don't get why raising the flop here > calling.

The problem with this hand is I know absolutely nothing about villains tendencies. I thought about it some more and I figured if I plan on betting the river when checked to I should raise the turn. Thoughts on raising turn as well?
I 3bet preflop because CO is probably raising with alot of hands and will probably continue with alot worse hands than JJ. If you 3bet pre you probably would get checked to, then you can bet all the way and get calls from lower pp or maybe even ace high. Also I dont think it would be as bad calling all the way down if you 3bet preflop.
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bigspenda73
Old 03-25-2009, 07:29 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by yourfather
if your not gonna 3 bet raise the flop.
no
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sil693
Old 03-25-2009, 11:02 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Also I dont think it would be as bad calling all the way down if you 3bet preflop.
why do you think it is better to call down 3 streets vs the part of villains range that continues against a 3 bet?

how can his 3 bet calling range be weaker than his CO pfr range?
 
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Kbryce23
Old 03-25-2009, 09:03 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sil693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Also I dont think it would be as bad calling all the way down if you 3bet preflop.
why do you think it is better to call down 3 streets vs the part of villains range that continues against a 3 bet?

how can his 3 bet calling range be weaker than his CO pfr range?
What I was trying to say about it being better calling down if you 3bet is that if you just flat pre it seems weak to just call down and not raise it up. But if you 3bet then there wouldnt really be much sense in raising
I was thinking if you 3bet then his bets probably wouldnt be so small. Also wouldnt this be a good board to just call with JJ. I probably woudnt call anything crazy on the turn and river, but I would call a normal size bet all the way. .
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-25-2009, 09:19 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbryce23
What I was trying to say about it being better calling down if you 3bet is that if you just flat pre it seems weak to just call down and not raise it up. But if you 3bet then there wouldnt really be much sense in raising
I was thinking if you 3bet then his bets probably wouldnt be so small. Also wouldnt this be a good board to just call with JJ. I probably woudnt call anything crazy on the turn and river, but I would call a normal size bet all the way. .
I think the question is, 'why should we be raising' postflop. 'Because calling looks weak' isn't a good reason, in fact, if anything I think that's why we should refrain from raising the flop (I'm still unsure of whether to raise the turn bet or not), because we'd want villain to keep putting money into the pot with a worse hand on later streets.

If we raise the flop now, we elminate alot of his continuing range that we have crushed. For example, if he always 2-barrells like 70% of his range, if we raise the flop, we'll most likely only get the stronger portion of his range coming along. If we just call, he may still continue to put money into the pot with air. Looking back I think this is a great board to just call with JJ, the turn and river though could be played differently I think but I'm not sure if you guys would advocate raising the weak turn bet or not considering I have no idea what it means.

If I 3-bet preflop, and he calls, then leads the flop and turn, not only will his bets be bigger, but I'll be calling down when I'm likely way behind, and given the SPR I'd be close to being all in on the turn and likely a dog to his 3-bet stack-off range.

I think 3-betting also creates the problem of being even more unsure where we stand, because if we 3-bet, he calls, and then c/c's a flop c-bet, we don't know the villain at all so we have no clue whether we're WA/WB. So we'll most likely end up committed against a guy we know nothing about in a 3-bet pot with JJ, I dunno about you guys but that's a situation I try to avoid until I at least get some idea of his play. I think the value you'll get by 3-betting is too thin in this spot because of all that, so I decided to call because I figured it would be the best way to try and maximize my value.
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Stacks
Old 03-25-2009, 09:19 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Quote:
Originally Posted by sil693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbryce23
Also I dont think it would be as bad calling all the way down if you 3bet preflop.
why do you think it is better to call down 3 streets vs the part of villains range that continues against a 3 bet?

how can his 3 bet calling range be weaker than his CO pfr range?
What I was trying to say about it being better calling down if you 3bet is that if you just flat pre it seems weak to just call down and not raise it up. But if you 3bet then there wouldnt really be much sense in raising
I was thinking if you 3bet then his bets probably wouldnt be so small. Also wouldnt this be a good board to just call with JJ. I probably woudnt call anything crazy on the turn and river, but I would call a normal size bet all the way. .
Think about how a 3bet changes villain's range in this instance. What type of hands are going to typically call a 3bet preflop?
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Kbryce23
Old 03-25-2009, 10:18 PM #11 (permalink)  
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I would say a typical player in this spot calls a 3bet with 22-qq, ak, and 4bets aa,kk. Maybe I just call too many 3bets for set value. Does his 3bet calling range loosen up since we are raising from such late position?
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Stacks
Old 03-25-2009, 10:56 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 Well in most typical 3bet scenarios, you likely don't have the correct odds to call for set value. But what I was getting at is if we 3bet, the likely range of hands he calls with is pairs, primarily big pairs. Therefore, on a flop like this our JJ is going to be in pretty good shape against a range of random CO opening hands like KJ, 67, etc. However, if we narrow his range to hands like QQ+, then suddenly our JJ isn't looking so hot.

However, keep in mind the decision of whether to 3bet or not was decided before we got to this flop. So just because we see a flop where it is likely favorable to call preflop rather than 3bet, doesn't mean that the call was better +EV decision preflop. However, imo, and given the normal range of hands most villains continue against 3bets with, I think in this instance a call is usually better than a 3bet.

Just a FWIW, calling here in villain's shoes with hands like AK, 22-99 are probably not the ideal choice.
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Kbryce23
Old 03-25-2009, 11:13 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Well in most typical 3bet scenarios, you likely don't have the correct odds to call for set value. But what I was getting at is if we 3bet, the likely range of hands he calls with is pairs, primarily big pairs. Therefore, on a flop like this our JJ is going to be in pretty good shape against a range of random CO opening hands like KJ, 67, etc. However, if we narrow his range to hands like QQ+, then suddenly our JJ isn't looking so hot.

However, keep in mind the decision of whether to 3bet or not was decided before we got to this flop. So just because we see a flop where it is likely favorable to call preflop rather than 3bet, doesn't mean that the call was better +EV decision preflop. However, imo, and given the normal range of hands most villains continue against 3bets with, I think in this instance a call is usually better than a 3bet.

Just a FWIW, calling here in villain's shoes with hands like AK, 22-99 are probably not the ideal choice.
OK, so what hands should we be 3betting here and is there any type of villian we should be 3betting here with jj?
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kevin2311
Old 03-26-2009, 02:37 AM #14 (permalink)  

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be careful with jj its a deciving hand that could either be really good or really bad depending on how you lay iut. i say its the hardest hand because your going to bet alot with it but will alwaso have to fold it that same hand
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surviva316
Old 03-26-2009, 06:56 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 your thinking behind the hand sees passable (i'd flat the open also). i don't know about the river bet. what's he calling with here that's worse? i guess sall overpairs but even that's questionable
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Airles™
Old 03-26-2009, 07:17 PM #16 (permalink)  
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IMO it was well played without any reads.
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