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5NL - JJ gets 3bet PF, hit set. Thoughts on turn play?

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acoss3006

01-12-2010, 11:24 PM Post subject: 5NL - JJ gets 3bet PF, hit set. Thoughts on turn play?

#1 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

I dont have any reads on villian but I suggest to 3bet my UTG raise pre his range is something like {AA-TT, AK-AJ, KQ}.

On the flop, I think he fires that whole range at me and I call to keep the whole range in the hand. I think if I raise here it looks super scary and he folds TT, AK-AJ, KQ, whereas I want more value from those hands.

The turn is where im a bit lost. I think at the time I donked the turn because I thought the board was getting drawy. In hindsight, the flush draw is a small part of his range and im still way ahead.

How do you guys play the turn? Should I bet small to try and keep villians entire range in the hand? Or should I check with the hope of inducing another bet and either calling or raising?

Thoughts appreciated.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (8 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP2 ($1.94)
BB ($2)
Hero (UTG) ($5.82)
SB ($4.64)
MP1 ($6.32)
UTG+1 ($1.22)
Button ($3.44)
CO ($10.46)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J

, J

Hero bets $0.12, 3 folds, CO raises $0.40, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.28

Flop: ($0.86) 6

, J

, 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.61, Hero calls $0.61

Turn: ($2.08) 4

(2 players)
[color=#CC3333]Hero ($4.89 behind)?

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spoonitnow

01-12-2010, 11:35 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: IRC Chat Room

Posts: 5,406

You should describe your opponent's range and how he plays it here and do a small amount of analysis to decide which betting line will get the most value. It would also be a good idea to not show the results here (that your opponent folds).

Cliff notes: PUT YOUR OPPONENT ON A GODDAMN RANGE AND STOP SHOWING FUCKING RESULTS JESUS CHRIST I'M GOING TO HAVE A STROKE IF I HAVE TO TYPE THIS SAME SHIT ONE MORE GODDAMN TIME.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

acoss3006

01-12-2010, 11:50 PM

#3 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Spoon,

Thanks for your comments, particularly those about the betting line. I should (and will) do some EV analysis around different turn bet sizes and continuation ranges for the villian.

I think you will find from my OP that I did put the (unknown) villian on a range and, as I indicated, I dont think the range changes throughout the hand. As villian is unknown, I am not sure what part of his range he will continue with on the turn. Hence why I asked, given villian is unknown, what would other players do on the turn. I will edit the results out if you think that will have more effect.

As for the nature of your cliff notes, I do appreciate your perspective but if you are just going to get aggro at me when I have put villian on a range and am asking a considered question, I would prefer it if you saved yourself the stroke and didnt comment on my posts from now on.

Arjonius

01-13-2010, 12:55 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 122

You can also check-raise the flop. If he has an overpair or an underset, He's unlikely to fold. Maybe AJ as well, although I think more people would have called with that than raised.

If he has no pair, he'll probably fold, but unless he catches well on the turn, you won't get much more money from him.

Having just called, I'd be inclined to bet the turn. I'm not too concerned with the flush draw since it would be backdoor. I mainly want to get him all in and figure I have a better chance by betting here than by checking again.

spoonitnow

01-13-2010, 03:08 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: IRC Chat Room

Posts: 5,406

You put your opponent on a range preflop but not for the rest of the hand. You seem to think it doesn't change, but that's not the case. He's more likely to bet AA than TT on the flop, for one example, so you should change how his range is weighted for the later streets.

Here are some questions to get you started in the right direction: What is his range now (on the turn) and how is that range weighted (what % overpairs, overcards, etc)? How will he play that range if you check? How will he play his range if you bet X, Y or Z amounts? In what situation do these options leave you on the river in terms of bet-sizing? What will his river range be like in each of these scenarios, and how much money are you going to be able to get in?

As for your preflop range, I doubt someone is 3-betting KQ and AJ but not 99. Basically, KQ and AJ are much less likely than AK, so you shouldn't weight them equally. Moreover, it's unlikely he'll be betting these weaker hands against your UTG range.

You can also start thinking about what your hand looks like if you lead the turn? if you check?

As played preflop and on the flop, I'm probably check/calling the turn since I think it gets the most value out of his range. KK+ is firing the turn most of the time, QQ is firing the turn a good portion of the time, and overcard hands have a chance to catch a pair on the river or barrel the turn. I feel like check/calling the turn will lose little to no value against overpairs compared to betting while extracting more value from overcard hands. If the turn goes check check and say a 2 comes on the river, it's more likely you get one more street out of second pair hands as well.

Editing the results like you did will very much improve the quality of responses and discussion you get from this hand. Good luck.

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5NL - JJ gets 3bet PF, hit set. Thoughts on turn play?

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