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5nl - I know I'm overthinking this, but wth...

  
 
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oskar
Old 08-05-2008, 05:53 PM     Post subject: 5nl - I know I'm overthinking this, but wth... #1 (permalink)  
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 Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (10 handed) Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($1.33)
Hero ($7.38)
Button ($7.31)
SB ($2.46)
BB ($5)
UTG ($5)
UTG+1 ($1.58)
UTG+2 ($5.34)
MP1 ($4.86)
MP2 ($5.72)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, T.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.04, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.04, Button raises to $0.12, 2 folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $0.08.

I guess this is pretty standard... I'm out of position, but I have the odds.

Flop: ($0.34) 9, T, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.2, Button raises to $0.8, Hero calls $0.60.

Now this is a little strange - he could be protecting an overpair, but with such a weak pf raise... he's also been a bit spewey in previous hands, and I have been fairly aggressive.
I know this is a fold, and I don't have a plan for a turn raise.

Turn: ($1.94) J (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1, Hero calls $1.
Now, if a blank came off, I was likely going to fold here, but now I have 13 outs to the river, and I'm pretty sure he has JJ-AA, or maybe AT, AJ, and I'm pretty positive I can get him all-in on the river if I hit it.

River: ($3.94) 5 (2 players)

This is where the card converter screwed up. He bet $2.8, and I folded.

Final Pot: $3.94

I know I should have folded on the flop, that's pretty much out of the question, but how bad exactly was the rest.
I tend to take quite a few risks at 5nl, but I'm also running very good at this level... I usually go up, fail to adjust and go down to 5nl again, so...
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ChrisBCritter
Old 08-05-2008, 07:01 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Summary: Pretty standard hand.

PreFlop: Fine. You're both pretty deep. You have Great Implied odds here.
Flop: Yea, I can see a fold here to his raise also, but it depends on your villian. Has he been passive? aggressive? What's your read. I will sometimes re-raise the flop with TPGK here, so I can fold easier if villian wants to continue.
Turn: With 13 outs (though quite a few are dirty IMO) this isn't a bad call, you have pretty good implied odds, and he definitely likes his hand.
River: Yup, I highly doubt that your villian is betting here with anything you beat. Good Fold.

Don't beat yourself up over these "Gray Area" decisions. They just aren't important enough to concentrate that much on. Move onto the next hand, you'll make more money in your black/white decision hands anyways!
Hey knucklehead! Bonk!
 
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davegrohl
Old 08-05-2008, 07:10 PM #3 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisBCritter
Move onto the next hand, you'll make more money in your black/white decision hands anyways!
qft
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sarbox68
Old 08-05-2008, 08:33 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Calling a PFR w/ a weak hand OOP always begs the question "Why?"... as in, what result are you calling for. And I'm betting in this case, it wasn't just to spike TPGK w/ the T... it's prolly to flop 2pr or 1pr + draw, etc.

The problem with continuing now you've hit TPGK is you have no real sense of where you are. And you're dominated by 99, TT, 77, JJ+, KT, AT, as well as a bunch of possible draws (flush & straight) + OCs that are all in his range. My point is, you're OOP against a lot that can go wrong with 2 cards to come and potentially already behind.

I'm guessing your flop donk was semi-bluff and "for information"... IMHO it should have been larger if you're looking to push him off... as it was, I could see him raising you from bu w/ two OCs... I'm not sure his raise tells you anything except that you still don't know much about what he has.

Yes, the turn gives you a OESD... but you could also be drawing dead against KQ, and if the K hits on the river to make your draw, you could be dead against AQ (all def in his range, esp. hearts for combo draw)

So my noobie 2 cents?
1. Don't cold call a mediocre hand like QTo out of position unless you have a very solid post-flop plan.
2. Don't overplay a mediocre hand like QTo out of position when you miss your post-flop plan, and instead spike a mediocre 1 pair hand.
3. Don't compound complexity by wading deeper and deeper into the sh!t when you still don't really have any idea how deep the sh!t is...

That said, I raise (or fold depending on reads...) QTo in the CO pre-flop against UTG+1 limper. If Bu 3-bets, it's an easy fold. If he cold-calls, I've got the initiative to c-bet the flop (prolly 3/4-psb Cbet on that board) and try and take it down there. That gives you a more turn options, including the double-barrel...
 
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oskar
Old 08-05-2008, 08:57 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Ok, I'm not multi-quoting, and I'm still playing, so I'm hoping I'll remember all the points.
I really haven't considered 3-betting the flop, but it might not have been all that bad against that opponent. He was betting big rather lightly. I've only been at this table for a couple of orbits, so I don't have a solid read, but he was one of 3 players that I put in the semi-maniac category... likely to call down hoping to beat a bluff, etc.

sarbox - there's no way I'm folding pre-flop. The only reason I wasn't opening with it was the UTG limper who has been playing timidly.
I'm calling because I get 2:1 and when I hit a pair it's usually good.
On the flop I'm raising because I think I have the best hand!
This is HE... I have a pair... top pair, baby!!
I'm not check-calling / check-raising because it is such a draw heavy board, and I don't want to see an A or K either on the turn.
On the turn... not all outs are clean, but I like my implied odds, and the few hands that I won't beat if I hit the river don't really scare me.

My plan at 5nl is to win big hands. I call rather lightly if i have a good draw, and these are the hands I usually make big pots with. I left that particular table with 16$
I might not be the most solid strategy ever, but it's kind of hard to find something that does not work at 5NL, and playing like a monkey on crack is fun, especially if it works. So I play rather agressive if the table is weak-tight - which it usually is, leave rebuy-to-max on, and pretty soon someone will be willing to stack off against me with 3rd pair because he thinks I'm an idiot that will call/raise anything.

So I should have added that part of the reason why I raised this flop was because I raise pretty much every HU flop that I'm in, if I don't have a solid reason not to.
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Thunder
Old 08-05-2008, 09:23 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Am I the only person who thinks Q 10o is ok - not great - from the CO?

And how do you discern the river bet from a goofball who's trying to push you off your hand?
 
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oskar
Old 08-05-2008, 09:28 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 I think the only hand that would try to push me off here would be Ax of hearts, and I guess he would bet more if he had that, and he probably would bet less on the turn. In fact, I would have seriously considered making a substential bet if a heart did come. I don't think he would 3-barrel here with air, especially after I called him on the flop.
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stringerBELL
Old 08-05-2008, 09:40 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Preflop: Fold after you've been 3bet by button, don't like playing QTo oop. I wouldn't even flat this behind the limper. Either raise it to isolate and hope you get position or just muck.
Flop: I think you're lead of 2/3 here looks weak, I'd make sure to pot it if you're donking out. Standard fold to raise, hits loads of his range. If he is betting out as light as you say, maybe c/r this board.
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oskar
Old 08-05-2008, 11:12 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 That is kind of my standard raise. I wouldn't like to bet 1/2 to 1/3 on a bluff, and then make a pot sized bet when I hit it.
Maybe I'm giving players at this level too much credit, but I notice stuff like that, and I play at this level, so...

Are you guys serious about folding pre-flop? In an MTT or SnG - of course! - but in a cash game with both players almost 200bb deep?
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sarbox68
Old 08-06-2008, 04:58 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
Am I the only person who thinks Q 10o is ok - not great - from the CO?

And how do you discern the river bet from a goofball who's trying to push you off your hand?
No... count me as +1. I'll prolly play against 1 limper, but I'm sure as sh!t raising that b!tch up. No way in hell I'm flatting from the CO with the Bu still to come... 'cause he's likely to do exactly what I'd do from Bu... raise the b!tch up!! Plus you got no initiative going into the flop... If you like the hand enough to play, raise up the limper! ...but that's just me.... wtf do I know...

Oh... and BTW to OP... IMHO you're giving way too much credit to a mediocre one pair hand AND you're OOP with no real clue where you stand. Remember... 1 pair is only 1 step better than a high card, and gets weaker every street....
 
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Erpel
Old 08-06-2008, 11:43 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oskar
That is kind of my standard raise. I wouldn't like to bet 1/2 to 1/3 on a bluff, and then make a pot sized bet when I hit it.
Maybe I'm giving players at this level too much credit, but I notice stuff like that, and I play at this level, so...

Are you guys serious about folding pre-flop? In an MTT or SnG - of course! - but in a cash game with both players almost 200bb deep?
Last first - folding is a yes. People are quoting the implied odds of a super deep stack as reasons for calling and that is true.. as far as it goes. However, upon review that's not really a great thing. One of the things deep stacks do is make position even more important. If you had QTs instead of QTo I would call folding preferred - with QTo I'd almost call it mandatory. When the stacks are deep and you are out of position (and without the initiative) you are giving all the implied odds advantages to your opponent. If you had been in position in this hand - hugely different stance. But you're out of position and it's a huge deal.

Standard raise - ok. Think about it. Good old No Limit Holdem Theory and Practice harps on about that bluffs should be only big enough to get the folds you want so you don't lose too much money when called and that value bets should be as big as possible while still being called so you get maximum value. You are correct in saying that strict adherence to this principle is turning your cards face up and letting people play correctly against you. However, a fixed raise size has drawbacks also. There is a wealth of good articles (and also portions of books) on raise sizing, but here's something you may want to consider. Vary raise sizing based on the board texture. If there are many draws on the board make bigger bets (to give drawing hands even worse odds) and if the board is very dry maybe make smaller near 1/2 pot bets. Also vary bet/raise sizing based on stack sizes (especially when you want to get stacks all in - or want to leave the impression that you are trying to get stacks all in). Bet/raise sizing is not normally a huge deal at the lowest micro stakes, but I notice that small stakes players are talking about sizing bets and raises correctly as one of the tools they needed to start utilising correctly before they turned from breakeven to winning players.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 08-06-2008, 12:15 PM #12 (permalink)  
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nothing is standard about preflop. And I fold every time on the flop.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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oskar
Old 08-06-2008, 01:06 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
nothing is standard about preflop. And I fold every time on the flop.
You check-fold or you bet-fold?

I get the argument. It's kind of hard for me to find a fold there pre-flop though, considering the number of hands I play
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a500lbgorilla
Old 08-06-2008, 01:13 PM #14 (permalink)  
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if it were QTs, you could cold call preflop. I just muck preflop, sometimes I'll raise but that's limper+blinds-dependant.

Yes, I would fold if I bet. If I checked, I'd probably check-fold to his strong cbet.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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